[US Politics] Why do people support liberal policy when the results are poor? - Page 8 - Politics and Society -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

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09-25-2023 , 05:30 PM

#176

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

Yea ofc. I don’t believe in jailing innocent people and I believe in innocent until proven guilty.

Quote

09-25-2023 , 05:52 PM

#177

PointlessWords

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,683

I am not surprised that you lack reading comprehension skills

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09-25-2023 , 05:59 PM

#178

Luckbox Inc

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 61,288

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

I am not surprised that you lack reading comprehension skills

I think he understood just fine. You don't believe in locking people up regardless of the circumstances until they are convicted, right?

Quote

09-25-2023 , 06:17 PM

#179

PointlessWords

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,683

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

I think he understood just fine. You don't believe in locking people up regardless of the circumstances until they are convicted, right?

I don’t believe the state should lock up innocent people. It’s pretty easy to understand.

I believe in the US presumption of innocence.

Quote

09-25-2023 , 06:23 PM

#180

caseIIclosed

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 1,183

How do you feel about a GPS ankle monitor for those charged with crimes?

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09-25-2023 , 06:25 PM

#181

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

I don’t believe the state should lock up innocent people. It’s pretty easy to understand.

I believe in the US presumption of innocence.

So, dude gets picked up by five-o standing over a corpse with a bloody knife, and when the cops arrive he says "I'm glad I killed the bastard". You think he should be out on personal recognizance for the year or two it takes for the case to get to trial, right?

Hint: to even arrest someone, the cops need probable cause. They don't just snatch random people from the local church on a Sunday afternoon and charge them with first degree murder for shits and giggles.

Last edited by d2_e4; 09-25-2023 at 06:34 PM.

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09-25-2023 , 07:33 PM

#182

PointlessWords

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,683

Quote:

Originally Posted by d2_e4

Do you think cops should decide guilt?

Quote

09-25-2023 , 07:36 PM

#183

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

Do you think cops should decide guilt?

Cops should decide if they have probable cause for an arrest. It's part of their job.

My turn. Do you know what probable cause is?

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09-25-2023 , 07:37 PM

#184

Luckbox Inc

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Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 61,288

Quote:

My turn. Do you know what probable cause is?

Probable cause is what causes innocent people to go to jail. How do we know they're innocent? It's because they haven't been found guilty yet.

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09-25-2023 , 07:39 PM

#185

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Probable cause is what causes innocent people to go to jail. How do we know they're innocent? It's because they haven't been found guilty yet.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

Quote

09-25-2023 , 07:39 PM

#186

PointlessWords

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,683

Quote:

Originally Posted by d2_e4

Cops should decide if they have probable cause for an arrest. It's part of their job.

My turn. Do you know what probable cause is?

probable cause that a crime has been committed? sounds like an unconstitutional way to jail the innocent

Quote

09-25-2023 , 07:39 PM

#187

Luckbox Inc

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Definitely lots of power handed to the police when we give them the right to arrest people.

Probably best that they just point out the suspects to more responsible parties for them to deal with.

Quote

09-25-2023 , 07:42 PM

#188

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Definitely lots of power handed to the police when we give them the right to arrest people.

Probably best that they just point out the suspects to more responsible parties for them to deal with.

"Officer, there's a gentleman over there wandering around with a bloody axe and muttering to himself. Could you maybe file some paperwork so we could take him to trial next year?"

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09-25-2023 , 07:47 PM

#189

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

This conversation with PW is a perfect example of what happens hapless USA -"#1 FREEDUMBS"-ians mindlessly recite slogans they think sound cool but of which they fundamentally have absolutely no understanding, e.g. "freedom of speech", "innocent until proven guilty", et al.

Edit: quite amusing that I wrote the above literally as you were typing out the below.

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09-25-2023 , 07:49 PM

#190

PointlessWords

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Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,683

Quote:

Originally Posted by d2_e4

"Officer, there's a gentleman over there wandering around with a bloody axe and muttering to himself. Could you maybe file some paperwork so we could take him to trial next year?"

theres a couple of things I really like about america. You see america was founded under this principle

Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.

I love the freedom of speech and to assemble (to resist govt)
I love the laws that say you cannot infringe upon my right to bear arms (to resist tyranny)
and I love that you are legally innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

You do not love these rights,and that is why these rights are here; so people that do not love them cannot take them away.

Quote

09-25-2023 , 07:50 PM

#191

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

probable cause that a crime has been committed? sounds like an unconstitutional way to jail the innocent

Man, I missed this. Either you're trolling or.... well, I hope for your sake you're trolling.

I simply refuse to accept that even a Yank can be this dense, so I'm going with trolling.

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09-25-2023 , 07:58 PM

#192

Bobo Fett

Carpe Diem

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 56,956

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

You do not love these rights,and that is why these rights are here; so people that do not love them cannot take them away.

He every well may love those rights. It sounds more like he doesn't love those rights realized in the same way you think they should be - completely unfettered regardless of circumstances. I think you'd find yourself in a pretty tiny minority on that one.

Everyone understands that having people in jail until their trial clashes with an absolute principle of "innocent until proven guilty", and there is a subsequent danger of abuse of power. The vast majority are OK with that, when they believe the tradeoff is worthwhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.

So, should there even be laws? Are they not providing me with security by sacrificing my freedom?

Quote

09-25-2023 , 08:02 PM

#193

PointlessWords

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Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,683

Quote:

Originally Posted by d2_e4

Man, I missed this. Either you're trolling or.... well, I hope for your sake you're trolling.

I simply refuse to accept that even a Yank can be this dense, so I'm going with trolling.

I think we can live in a society with very little violent crime, like Norway, and we can have no bond system, like SF was. It’s not perfect but it’s a step in the right direction. I’m sorry I don’t want all Americans to be in jail and stuff like that , I believe in a better path.

If we didn’t have this whole shitty system set up that you guys LOVE, they would’ve found other solutions like the rest of the world does.

Instead Americans are stuck with idiots who think jail is the answer

Quote

09-25-2023 , 08:02 PM

#194

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobo Fett

Everyone understands that having people in jail until their trial clashes with an absolute principle of "innocent until proven guilty"

I'm not entirely convinced this is even the case. That's what bail is for, right?

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09-25-2023 , 08:03 PM

#195

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

What is your actual argument? That nobody should ever be held in pre-trial detention on principle, or that, well, actually, maybe, some people should? Because if it's the latter, can I suggest we institute some sort of ruling body to decide who should and who shouldn't, and the conditions of release for those that aren't? We could call it a "court" or something.

Do you actually even understand what your own argument is? I believe I speak for all here when I say we're struggling to.

Last edited by d2_e4; 09-25-2023 at 08:09 PM.

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09-25-2023 , 08:05 PM

#196

PointlessWords

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,683

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobo Fett

People literally have no idea what’s going on because they don’t read the data. Also it’s a stretch to say the vast majority feel one way or the other when we have little data besides biased phone polls to back that up

Quote

09-25-2023 , 08:11 PM

#197

PointlessWords

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Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 4,683

Quote:

Originally Posted by d2_e4

change the law so it doesnt say innocent until proven guilty

OR

dont send innocent people to jail.

You can easily hire cops to escort people around, and then if they attack people you can take them to a short term mental health facility, as they are clearly crazy.

Quote

09-25-2023 , 08:12 PM

#198

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

Ok, you're either a tiresome troll, or 8 years old. I'm done here.

Quote

09-25-2023 , 08:15 PM

#199

Bobo Fett

Carpe Diem

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 56,956

Quote:

Originally Posted by d2_e4

I'm not entirely convinced this is even the case. That's what bail is for, right?

But not everyone can get out on bail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

I don't need a poll to know the vast majority of people would not be in favour of releasing someone for an unknown length of time when, for example, they've been caught committing a violent crime with dozens of witnesses and video evidence to match, and are planning to continue their violent acts the moment they are released.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

You can easily hire cops to escort people around

Not easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

and then if they attack people you can take them to a short term mental health facility, as they are clearly crazy.

No you can't, because innocent until proven guilty.

Quote

09-25-2023 , 08:16 PM

#200

d2_e4

certifiable moron

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 12,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointlessWords

You can easily hire cops to escort people around

Although I have to admit, I am jealous of the workings of the mind that came up with this ingenious solution. We simply hire cops to escort around every criminal defendant in the country. All 5+ million (at a guess) of them. EZ game.

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