OK. I deleted some posts on gender dysphoria, that while seeming to cite DSM-5_tr, actually ignored what it actually says about gender dysphoria and transgender people and instead was filled with falsehoods and hate speech. I will not allow this thread to become a gathering point for posters who want to spew bullshit about whether transgender people even exist or state that it is a delusion. And especially then try and say that's the consensus of the scientific community. I will no more allow that then I would allow anyone to make the case that any other minority group is somehow less than human than another. I don't care what reference they would cite.

I had my concerns about the existence of this thread when I first arrived as it seemed strange to have a thread singling out issues with just one particular minority group. It struck me as a possible venue for people to attack transgender people rather than address issues that are involved from a policy perspective. I've left it up because there are some political and societal issues that arise. But what is absolutely off the table are comments or discussions as to whether transgender people exist or are just delusional.

So if you happen to believe that, that's your right, but you need to keep it off this site. I am not going to shut down this thread. I am going to shut down any poster who insists on attacking a minority group. And I'm telling you now, if you post hate speech like that here, you won't be coming back in 3 days or a week to post it again. This is one of those "advance directly to go" type offenses. So choose your words carefully.

Here's a link that actually discusses what gender dysphoria is and isn't. If you read it carefully, and to the end, you will see how badly some posts misrepresented things.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-...nder-dysphoria

To repeat, you stated earlier: I thought perhaps this implied that you felt that a straight effeminate male or a butchy straight female might be common if they are repressed. Is that true? Then I was suggesting that there might be transgender people that fit that description, but since they are straight, they would constitute a counterpoint to your belief that, for the most part, transgender people are gay. I was also wondering if you felt that someone with autogynephilia was necessarily gay, since you didn't explicitly say so. Concerning your more recent post, when you say , that isn't quite accurate, because just as I'm speculating above, I was wondering if you thought that a straight person could be transgender in certain cases.

While maybe some posts were deleted before I read them, I personally saw zero posts that suggested that trans people were "less than human."

Pretty much every thread in this Forum has folks claiming that the "other side" is delusional. Not sure why that should be allowed in practically every thread except this one.

You know me, I'm a "go along to get along" kind of guy.

Thanks for the link, Browser!

Well in my mind if you're a repressed homosexual then you're still gay even if you don't know it and are living your life as a heterosexual. I realize I wasn't clear there and I'm sure people can disagree as well. I'm not even sure I fully agree but it seems like a reasonable enough stance.

By this you mean someone essentially displaying as the opposite sex, but who have transitioned or who are repressed? The terminology gets confusing here because if someone is trans then they are considered gay or straight based on gender and not sex so I would need you to clarify a bit what you mean here.

I'm working on learning about autogynephilia but it's essentially its own unique sexuality that can't be classified as hetero or homosexual, because instead of being aroused by other people the target of one's attraction has been misplaced onto one's own self. The Benjamin Boyce video I posted gets into it and he has other videos interviewing autogynephiles that will give more insight there.

Ultimately it's probably the case that thinking about sexuality in a dichotomous fashion as "gay" or "straight" is going to be a bit limiting, especially for females and perhaps for males too to an extent, as it's a bit more flexible than that, but I do imagine that there are going to be people who could be considered straight and trans. The girl I know is bi so it's not hard to imagine someone like her who prefers males exclusively.

I read the post and if I had thought it would be deleted I would have taken a screenshot, but I didn't see anything dehumanizing or hateful either. Ultimately it seems like a semantic issue but I won't rehash the argument since I'm not sure exactly what was said as is and Browser has it made it clear to not go there.

I also may have missed something, but I certainly never saw anyone say that trans people were less than human, or anything at all similar to that.

And the only mention I ever saw of trans people not existing was by a supporter of trans rights inaccurately accusing others of saying they don't exist.

Slighted,

The situation in America is getting worse for transgender people.

I've read some things you've written about the criminal justice system and have been impressed. You know how some things that happen in the justice system are just too ****ed up to explain to an average person sometimes? like they can't process it? That is what is currently happening in the trans community.



There has been a huge increase in anti trans bills this year, many of them deny basic rights of trans people. In some states pride parades will be illegal and trans and intersex people will be deprived of life saving care.

This girl who died was from today and one of thousands of hate murders against the trans community that I have heard about.

The worst part is these are the most innocent people in society. like really.
Imagine if your sweet 8 year old daughter was drawing a picture of clouds that she said were cloud pokemon and baking cookies or something and someone told her she was a demonic pervert who deserves to die and slapped her out of the blue and then everyone clapped? That is the kind of thing that is happening here in plain sight.


They don't have any money to fight back because society is SO discriminatory against them and these are people who just want to buy butterfly bracelets from claire's and draw interior designs and maybe maybe in a dream world go out on a date like a normal person. They are the spiritual heirs of American society imo. The rhetoric that many on the right are using is very similar to the rhetoric used against trans people in the 1930's...

i didn't think any lines were crossed, it was respectful and stating that gender dysphoria is a mental health issue is not a controversial opinion but actually what the medical field believes as well

You have no clue if this girl was killed because she was trans gender. If she was it's tragic and the two individuals should be prosecuted for a hate crime

Many of these bills are protecting children from making life altering decisions. Many countries in Europe have halted many procedures on children .

I don't think you're allowed to say that.

That implies that there is something "wrong" with them, when the actual fault goes towards whoever was doing the sex assigning at birth.

This is some of what wikipedia shows about these rising crop of bills right now, but of course they are being fair and the reality of the situation is still unfolding- it's insane.

There are no life altering medical decisions made by children in regards to gender dysphoria in any respected and normal institution or hospital.

Did you read the piece from the lady who worked at the clinic in St Louis?

Like all prior mods, Browser has apparently married the Spirit of the Age, which is why this forum is a truth-free zone on some topics.

Yes. I haven't seen any actual proof of her claims yet.

Abuse happens all the time and people get prosecuted for it and rightfully so; hospitals, retirement homes, psychiatric wards, clinics etc etc.

If there was any abuse of children then those abusers belong in prison. That doesn't mean the idea of retirement homes or hospitals or psychiatric wards are bad it just means that particular ward or home or hospital is corrupt.

It certainly wouldn't make the abused retirees or hospital patients bad people as has been implied.

But I have heard different accounts of that children's hospital from other first hand accounts and don't know how true the allegations even are.

I don't think what she is alleging rises to the level of prosecutable offenses.

Just that kids come in and are rubber-stamped for hormones. Sure the kids aren't actually literally making the decisions themselves but what she is saying is that no one is telling them no.

I don't know that her account of events even amounts to saying "no one is telling them no".
Her account differs from everyone else's account at the children's hospital including a number of patients and their families that say they received good care there. They have psychologists, doctors, and therapists at the hospital. She isn't one of those but instead a case worker. I'm not saying that everything she said is fiction but how come none of the parents, children, psychologists, doctors or therapists involved share her overall picture of treatment? Why does she use so many right wing talking points in her "whistleblower" story and almost no science?
I'm just asking questions.

I'm curious about what some of her right wing talking points were. She described herself as being left of Sanders.

I'm definitely speaking from your perspective, that is wrt to the notion of a transgender person's gender identity being an outgrowth of their sexual orientation, with the understanding that that is a taboo outlook here, one you aren't supposed to consider. So, concerning their sexual orientation, it would be based on their assigned sex at birth, whether they would be considered straight or gay in relation to that, and not on the gender expressed through transgender identity. You said previously that transgender people are essentially gay people who hate themselves, an obviously controversial statement for this thread. Anyway, I'm simply countering your notion that they would have to be gay in the "sex-based sense", and suggesting that they could be straight, which is still a controversial thing to openly contemplate in this thread of course.

Typically people to the left of Bernie Sanders aren't being represented by someone like Vernadette Broyles before writing articles where they repeatedly misgender their own patients. Vernadette Broyles is a conservative lawyer who previously worked closely with governor Ron de santis on things like his "don't say gay" bill.

Usually people to the left of Bernie Sanders don't hire people like that.

Well Sanders is more of an economic populist and not too much for identity politics.

I assume when someone says they're left of him that they're talking about class issues.

But you didn't actually say what any of her right wing talking points were. Also I don't recall her misgendering anyone. The one example I can think of was a girl who detransitioned.

I'm sure it's not completely cut and dry and like I said before, I think sexuality is complex enough that labels like 'straight' and 'gay' aren't capturing much nuance.

But that what we call gender is connected to sexuality ought to be pretty uncontroversial and is uncontroversial as best as I can tell from those who actually study this sort of stuff-- it's only the activists who seek to put a wedge between them.

As far as my view that there are Freudian sorts of processes happening-- that should be pretty uncontroversial as well when you look at the percentage of trans people who were sexually abused. Not that I think that's the only etiology as I'm sure there are many.

Yes, It's like schrödinger's cat.
"gay" "straight" "gender" "sexuality " - These words have a wide variety of meanings, and they can exist or not exist at the same time. But the important thing to luckbox is we always land on a meaning that denigrates transgender persons. People who believe in individual rights are really just "activists".

Why do you think I would care about denigrating trans people?

When have I once argued that trans people shouldn't have rights?

I think you should consider trying to post better.

Also go out and meet some gay people so you can learn about sex and gender-- you've clearly been too sheltered in conservative Kansas.

And then also tell me how the **** thinking that sex and gender are separate domains has to do with people believing in individual rights?

I stopped taking him seriously when he called the King James Bible "satanic."