Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Transgender issues IV (excised from "In other news") Transgender issues IV (excised from "In other news")

02-07-2023 , 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master
Ok, well certainly anyone can provide vague self-referential definitions analogous to what you did. How about "a woman is someone with a female gender". That's about equivalent of your "kindness" = "generous" or "red = to the side of orange" bits.
You're arguing that trans women are no longer women?

You're failing pretty hard here.
02-07-2023 , 06:06 PM
This feels like a problem a dictionary could resolve.
02-07-2023 , 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
This feels like a problem a dictionary could resolve.
Go for it.
02-07-2023 , 06:12 PM
Here is a good resource on color

https://physics.info/color/

Quote:
Color is a function of the human visual system, and is not an intrinsic property. Objects don't have a color, they give off light that appears to be a color. Spectral power distributions exist in the physical world, but color exists only in the mind of the beholder. Our perception of color is not an objective measure of anything about the light that enters our eyes, but it correlates pretty well with objective reality.

Color is determined first by frequency and then by how those frequencies are combined or mixed when they reach they eye. This is the physics part of the topic. Light falls on specialized receptor cells (called cones) at the back of the eye (called the retina) and a signal is sent to the brain along a neural pathway (called the optic nerve). This signal is processed by the part of the brain near the back of the skull (called the occipital lobe). Here's where the biology kicks in, or maybe it's the psychology, or maybe it's both. They eye is very much like a camera, but the brain is not at all like a video recorder. The brain is not like a computer with fixed hardware of transistors and capacitors executing some sort of software code. The neurons of the brain are probably best thought of as wetware — a fusion of hardware and software or maybe something completely different. I don't feel qualified to say much about that end of this process. Once the visual information leaves the eye, basic physics ends and neurocognition takes over.

Color is determined first by frequency. Let's start by determining what a typical person would see when looking at electromagnetic radiation of a single frequency. Physicists call this monochromatic light. (The literal meaning of this word is "single color", but the actual meaning is "single frequency".)

Low frequency radiation is invisible. With an adequately bright source, starting somewhere around 400 THz (1 THz = 1012 Hz) most humans begin to perceive a dull red. As the frequency is increased, the perceived color gradually changes from red to orange to yellow to green to blue to violet. The eye doesn't perceive violet so well. It always seems to look dark compared to other sources at equal intensity. Somewhere between 700 THz and 800 THz the world goes dark again.
So yes, "red" is the lowest wavelength light that is visible to humans, before it changes to orange.
02-07-2023 , 06:17 PM
Kindness is going to be trickier but it could be defined with enough examples.

I did something kind for someone today-- two things actually but I'll share one. I was at the grocery store and I had a decent amount of stuff and the lady behind me was only buying milk-- I told her to go in front of me.
02-07-2023 , 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
Kindness is going to be trickier but it could be defined with enough examples.

I did something kind for someone today-- two things actually but I'll share one. I was at the grocery store and I had a decent amount of stuff and the lady behind me was only buying milk-- I told her to go in front of me.
Sir, you've just told us women don't exist.
02-07-2023 , 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master
The point is the vast majority of times you might refer to anyone as being a man or a woman you typically don't need to qualify it to say cis man or trans man or whatever. In the rare instance when there is a specific reason that being trans is relevant to the conversation - for instance being the first trans person to win an accolade - then it is ok, but in general it isn't needed. "He is a man" is just the shortest possible such sentence I could think of, but the point applies to most instances you use man/woman.

Characterizing being trans as "changed based on a thought" is obviously - obviously - dismissive. I'm sorry that trans people existing causes you this wild inconvenience of having to slightly adjust your language. The horror. But I, for one, am willing to make a few tweaks in order to be respectful of my fellow humans.
If not thoughts, what do you think being trans is based on?
02-07-2023 , 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
If not thoughts, what do you think being trans is based on?
A fundamental sense of self-identity.
02-07-2023 , 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
Sir, you've just told us women don't exist.
They don't. And I don't know if this lady identifies as one either.
02-07-2023 , 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
A fundamental sense of self-identity.
Lol what?
02-07-2023 , 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master
Meh, this all seems like silly word games trying to masquerade as some sort of sophomoric philosophical point. If you don't think women exist, then the way you are conceiving "definitions" probably means there is no definition. I think the rest of us have no problems understanding basic societal concepts like women.
I asked you also, and you avoided that question even when replying to the post.

I know what my definition of woman is, but it obviously doesn't match yours, so I would like to know what your definition is, along with the related questions I asked earlier.

It's not really fair to ask people to follow your word choices without even telling us what the words mean to you.
02-07-2023 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
It saves so much time if you just set out your position instead of asking people to define ordinary words for you.
He has clearly set out his position many times.
02-07-2023 , 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
He has clearly set out his position many times.
He's told us women don't exist and also there was a lady he saw at a store and also he doesn't know what "women" means or how to use the word in a sentence.
02-07-2023 , 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
I know what my definition of woman is
What is it?
02-07-2023 , 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
A fundamental sense of self-identity.
Then what gender am I? I've already said I have no fundamental sense of self-identity related to gender.

Also, a sense (in that context) still is a kind of thought.
02-07-2023 , 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
He's told us women don't exist and also there was a lady he saw at a store and also he doesn't know what "women" means or how to use the word in a sentence.
I believe has said that he thinks all gender is cultural and not intrinsic.
02-07-2023 , 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
He's told us women don't exist and also there was a lady he saw at a store and also he doesn't know what "women" means or how to use the word in a sentence.
In English we use the word "lady" to refer to adult human females, usually of a certain age.*

I shouldn't have to explain to you how common words work.

*"Unless they are "young ladies"
02-07-2023 , 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
What is it?
For me, it would be an adult with XX chromosomes.

But I don't think that implies any lack of respect for transgender people.
02-07-2023 , 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
Then what gender am I? I've already said I have no fundamental sense of self-identity related to gender.
I guess that means you're nonbinary.


Quote:
Also, a sense (in that context) still is a kind of thought.
Sure, it's a less dismissive way of putting it. No Lucky, I am not going to explain to you what "dismissive" means.
02-07-2023 , 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
Kindness is going to be trickier but it could be defined with enough examples.

I did something kind for someone today-- two things actually but I'll share one. I was at the grocery store and I had a decent amount of stuff and the lady behind me was only buying milk-- I told her to go in front of me.
Ok, so how about I give you two examples of a women. One is a cisgender woman, the other is a transgender woman.

You've yet to identify any reason why i should think defining "women" is particularly problematic.
02-07-2023 , 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
I asked you also, and you avoided that question even when replying to the post.

I know what my definition of woman is, but it obviously doesn't match yours, so I would like to know what your definition is, along with the related questions I asked earlier.

It's not really fair to ask people to follow your word choices without even telling us what the words mean to you.
I'm not sure which post specifically you want answer to, but feel free to share. Perhaps the best definition is similar to that of a Christian. If you tell me you are a Christian, I'm going to believe you unless I think you are like specifically trolling or something. Even those weird denominations that don't seem all that similar to other denominations that still call themselves christians.
02-07-2023 , 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master
Ok, so how about I give you two examples of a women. One is a cisgender woman, the other is a transgender woman.

You've yet to identify any reason why i should think defining "women" is particularly problematic.
Ok please give me those examples.

I'm still waiting for you to define it. In your first attempt you called it a female gender, which I assume you're backtracking on now since trans women aren't females.

Is it your opinion that "women" are defined by having a certain appearance? i.e., having long hair and wearing makeup?

Last edited by Luckbox Inc; 02-07-2023 at 07:17 PM.
02-07-2023 , 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
Ok please give me those examples.
Surely you know a cisgender female. Pick one of those. You might not know of a transgender female in your life. Maybe ask around. Pick that one. Now you have your two examples. Remember, you were the one who defined stuff by saying you could give a couple examples, I'm just following your lead. But it isn't a bad lead, to be honest, thinking of women as people with female anatomy or people with male anatomy who identify as a woman is reasonable enough. Everyone should be able to follow along with that idea, at least.


Quote:
In your first attempt you called it a female gender, which I assume you're backtracking on now since trans women aren't females.
I would say trans women are females. As I've said before, it is tempting to code "female" for exclusively a biological trait, but we use women/female so interchangeably and not with this sharp dichotomy that I call trans women females.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
Is it your opinion that "women" are defined by having a certain appearance? E.g. having long hair and wearing makeup?
Yikes. Try again.
02-07-2023 , 07:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master

Yikes. Try again.
You were the one who said you were going to post examples of women. I was just trying to guess what they might look like.

What are the examples supposed to show?
02-07-2023 , 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master
Surely you know a cisgender female. Pick one of those. You might not know of a transgender female in your life. Maybe ask around. Pick that one. Now you have your two examples. Remember, you were the one who defined stuff by saying you could give a couple examples, I'm just following your lead. But it isn't a bad lead, to be honest, thinking of women as people with female anatomy or people with male anatomy who identify as a woman is reasonable enough. Everyone should be able to follow along with that idea, at least.
I don't know any trans women but I do know a trans guy-- so we'll go with that.

And as best as I can determine it's all about how they self-identify. Is that the correct answer?

      
m