Then why are we having a conversation? I guess you really are a bad-faith poster!

Why not?

Given your tendency to misrepresent stuff, I'm certainly not going to take your word on this. (To be clear, I am not saying that you are misrepresenting what happened here. It's just that I don't trust what you say when it comes to interpreting posts.)


I'll leave you and Uke to continue that point for another gazillion pages (give or take).

Please stop polluting this delightful thread with facts.. Thanking you in advance.

If I just randomly come out and tell you "I don't really believe you believe in God. Its all an act', that would pretty meaningless to you right.

You know what you believe for fact and me telling you my guess and worse trying to assert my guess is correct and your factual knowledge of your view is wrong, is, if anything, silly and laughable.

Similarly you telling me what you think about an action I took that I know for fact is similarly meaningless to me, as it should be.

It is similar but not as bad uke's smear and slander tactic where he reads what I write, and it is not the bad thing he wants it to be. So instead he replaces it with what he thinks I really mean, while telling me to 'just admit it'.

it is like he can convince me I meant something I did not, if he just keeps saying it. BUt really he is speaking to everyone else reading the posts but not really paying attention, and hoping his lies and slanders stick.

Agreed. Happy to see others post some facts on the trans prison issue.

it is uke who would scream and shout at any posting even touching on any of these issues and decry the topic as not to be discussed.

I want to see good practices in play and pragmatic decisions being made and I will applaud it whenever I see it and hope people ignore people like uke who want to ignore and silence it and then slander and slur anyone who would raise it in an attempt to make the topic unpalatable for anyone else to discuss.

I am glad I can prompt others to discuss it even if it angers uke more.

The problem here is 2-fold:
1) All you seem to harp on is how non-trans people will be able to pretend to be trans to take advantage of the system. You therefore seem uninterested in how all this impacts actual trans people. And it's not like this has been a short, quick thread where you just haven't had the chance yet.

2) You keep changing the facts. You said this:
but you haven't actually provided the bolded at all. In all your examples, there has been a review process. So did you misread or are you purposely making things up?

It wouldn't be meaningless to me at all! I'd want to know why you think that my stated belief in God is just an act. Especially given that we have a long history of interacting in this forum. If I had a posting history of "acting" like I believed something that I really didn't, it wouldn't really be a "random" observation on your part. You have a history (IN MY OPINION) of consistently misrepresenting what other posters have said in virtually every thread in this forum. We all have blind spots. Maybe that one is yours.

Again, you have a history of misrepresenting what people say over and over and over again. (IN MY OPINION!)

This!!!!

One of the problems with this narrative, is that neither Tucker Carlson nor his audience are remotely interested in the truth or the nuanced details of a policy debate. They will fall for exactly the same trap YOU fell for. Remember when you linked the auspicious group "KEEP PRISONS SINGLE SEX XX" before I had to explain the actual facts to you about how the California system works which you apparently now think is fantastic? Well Tucker Carlson's audience isn't going to be informed or care that the "extreme left" in California implemented a balanced panel review system. They are just going to screech and drone on about fake trans sex abusers. Just like you did. It ultimately doesn't matter whether the left was actually pragmatic - as they were - and came up with an appropriate and nuanced system or if the left actually was the extreme caricature you claim they are. Because either way the narrative on Tucker Carlson's show is going to be the same and the right wing pushback the same and the right wing laws in right wing states the same.

One side of this discussion is always present. You, uke and others already do a good job in presenting those positions.

I don't ask you why you don't bring up the issues I bring up and only really debate them if I do, as you guys tend to only focus on that side of the ledger.

So if you guys bring up why you think trans women should be in sport or prisons, I will present the other considerations that SHOULD ALSO be talked about considered and not just shouted down with a 'WHATABOUT' argument trying to deflect to trans women depression or crime stats. Things that are very important but not a reason to ignore other issues.

Read above in my long post as it absolutely cites situations of trans women being accepted on declaration only.

But Tucker Carlson et al love a foil. Someone they can point at who is ACTUALLY making the extremist left arguments that even centrist people shake their head at so they can then suggest they represent the entire left.

That is core to their game and people like you uke, are the food for their buffet. And willing so. YOu are so eager to get your fight and to expose just how 'bad those people' that you actively attack and try to whip them up into actions, and when they become the type of awake, in action, monster you were trolling for you then get to do part 2 of your act. Point at them while crying 'see look how terrible they are. Look at the harm they are now doing', which gives you vast satisfaction as you virtue signal along side it. All the while you not only do not recognize your part in motivating them to these deplorable actions but you have moved on to your next area to do it all over again.

You get to fill your belly on 'bad people' which makes you happy. You get to express sympathy for the new batch of victims and virtue signal which makes you happy. But you never do anything that contributes to reducing victims as that would mean you lose your fun. And you have to have your priorities.

I read every one of those articles in full, and not a single one cites this occurring without some verification/review process.

Edit: some are not explicit about what is going on and try to be misleading, but I don't think any show that there is any jurisdiction without a review process.

Except for the slight problem that nobody is advocating for cis male sex abusers to have a zero review process to get into women's prisons. Nobody ITT. None of the jurisdictions like California or the UK or Canada we've talked about ITT (your ""KEEP PRISONS SINGLE SEX XX" reference not-withstanding). This isn't a big political faction or an orthodox viewpoints of any political movement. You haven't even managed to quote a single extreme list activist who allegedly is advocating for this. Nobody.

And yet you persist. And Tucker Carlson persists.

The truth of a nuanced policy discussion about trans people in prison just isn't relevant for the Tucker Carlson's audience. Tucker Carlson is going to be whipping up the anti-trans sentiment blasting fake trans people and the extreme left who enables them regardless of whether there is actually any truth in it. And - crucially - trans issues are ONLY raised when they are perceived as negative about real or fake trans people, with zero effort spent on the suffering of trans people in prison or anywhere else. I know why Tucker Carlson uses these empty rhetorical tricks that villainize trans people. I just don't know why you are doing it too.

Tucker likes to cherry-pick examples of trans people destroying society; Cupertino prefers to just make **** up.

So there you go, as you mention it in your edit but say it is an attempt to be 'misleading' which maybe it is but is beside the point.

The point of the on going disagreement I have had with uke is over whether any of these type items should be raised and discussed at all.

His automatic screed about it being some type of 'fake trans' smear as a way to try and stop any of this being discussed is the issue.

IF indeed these issues are being engaged well in prisons, by sheriffs, in sports, then I am very happy but I will still point out the importance of talking about them and considering them and searching for meaningful compromises.

A reply to that is to not to try and label any such talk as trans phobia and silence it.

uke has flat out said versions of 'if you are male, cis male, white male' on these issues you need to 'shut up' which comes from a very toxic strain on the far left, that seeks to silence people and in order being male, cis male and white, makes you the biggest target to be silenced.

So does that mean you are acknowledging this:

is incorrect?

Cuepee, you've been raising and discussing the fake trans people in prisons "issue" for six months. You've gotten everything you could have ever wanted. I even did your googling for you and informed you that unlike your "KEEP PRISONS SINGLE SEX XX" group's claims California actually has a "fantastic" system just like you wanted. I think it is ****ing weird how much you obsess over "fake people in _____ " but ok you do you. You won. You got to talk about it, at length, with details, with back and forth, you got your issue out there.

Now that this is done, can you maybe come up with, oh, I dunno, a hundred other issues affecting trans people before you jump back onto a "fake trans people in ____" issue again?





This is not true. I probably have made a - completely valid - point that it is important for those of us with privilege to listen and try and learn from and be an ally for those of us without our priviledges. I listen to a lot of trans people, and sometimes this thread just seems wildly discordant from the issues that matter and are raised by trans people. For example, "we need to let cis male sex abusers into female prisons without review" just isn't some bright thread in the trans community that I've ever observed, and it is sort of off-planet levels of weird these claims. So I think we should listen and learn. But that isn't the same thing as saying if you are a cis white male you need to shut up and be silenced, I don't think I've ever suggested anything like that. I understand this distinction will likely be too subtle for you to understand, but nevertheless, there it is.

Counterpoint: some people actually should just shut up.

I myself have a tendency to ignore such advice.

According to the Office of National Statistics, half of all 'trans women' in UK prisons at any one time are there for sexual offences, compared to only 20% in the male estate as a whole. 'Trans women' prisoners therefore present a disproportionate risk. As it happens, again according to the ONS, most 'trans women' prisoners elect to serve their sentences in the male estate, which is just as well. Placing male sex offenders in women's units is obviously wrong. And if Stephen Wood ('Karen White') passed the risk assessment process, then the risk assessment process at that time was clearly unfit for purpose. Nor is there any reason to think it's improved since then, because of the ideological capture of our institutions by this bizarre cult. Women who've been raped are literally threatened with contempt proceedings by judges if they refer to their male but 'trans-identified' rapists as 'he', because the judges are using the 'Equal Treatment Bench Book' which appears to have been written in collaboration with trans lobby group Stonewall. The judges are not relying on the law, which says nothing of the kind, they're relying on 'Stonewall law'. And, as EHRC lawyer Afua Hirsch has pointed out, 'Stonewall law' is imaginary. It's what the powerful and massively funded lobby group claims the law should be, not what the law actually is. Journalists, activists and lawyers cannot even find out who wrote the ETBB, or who was consulted on it. It's forbidden knowledge.

Oh god the scary scare quotes again. I'm so scared.

Also can someone give me a gold star for this prediction: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=4598

Just popping back in here to see if Cuepee is still ranting about trans people - gosh, man, I'm trans and I talk about trans people less than you do, what's your deal? You get dumped by a trans person or something?

These days, trans people are worried that trans care will be made illegal (as many states are trying to do, some just for minors, some for people as old as 25), that we'll get murdered by some random person who has bought into all this "groomer" and "pedophile" rhetoric (there has been a big uptick in street harassment and assault, with perpetrators talking about how trans/queer people are groomers), or that we will lose the right to have sex or marry same sex partners (since Obergefell and Lawrence vs Texas relies on the same rulings / right to privacy that Roe v Wade does)

If we're thinking / worried about prison, it is usually in the context of "well, if I ever get sent to prison I guess I'll just kill myself, because I know they'll put me in a mens prison and I'll get assaulted everyday"

But, this thread is more "Cis peoples issues with trans people existing" than "Trans peoples issues existing in the world", so I'm not surprised some people in here are still trying to associate trans people with predators

I don't know enough about the issue to comment on the specifics, but it's great to see other students rallying for what they believe is mistreatment of a transgender student.

Labrador high school students walk out after transgender student denied access to female washroom

Thread should definitely be renamed to "Cis peoples issues with trans people existing"