So do these rulings embody your position or not? You said they do but then ignored where I brought up how they contradict your earlier positions.

There is a category of high school students who probably feel even worse than transgender women who are told they didn't make the team in spite of doing well enough in tryouts, due to their transition. A much larger category. I speak of women, transgender or not, who, after tryouts, are told they didn't make the team because they are not good enough. Uke master and ganstaman should shift some of their attention to them.

This has been talked about before, but I don't need to solve this problem, just as I don't need to solve any number of other problems with high school level sports that tangentially connect like billion dollar inequities in school funding. That we should - obviously - not ban young trans girls from playing sports with their friends isn't a claim meant to solve every problem in youth sports.

They do.

You will see how this "...three-person medical panel ...determine whether "prior physical development of the athlete as a male" plays out in practicality in terms of being an 'exclusionary' mechanism.

They are giving you acceptable optics for now but that being left to individuals to apply will move so quickly downstream that your head will spin.

Again, it won't take long to see any cis gal cut who then points to the 'unfair advantage" existing at every level of competitive sport and how that impacts them and for similar frustrations and rage in the community to foment because the message now would be 'ya we know it is unfair, we stated as much as the elite level, …we just don't care about the impact at this lower level so just suck it'.

You'll see how that goes, very quickly. Just as the prior changes to high schools that mirrored my position that uke then lauded, will be used similarly.

This is bizarre. You are saying this:

is the embodiment of your position?

I've raised that many time David when confronted with inclusion in Competitive sport is a must as not being included can have detrimental effects on ones mental health.

I point out that less people end up allowed to compete than want to already. That I knew of a girl in my hometown who pursued her Olympic dream and was set to qualify and then failed to and committed suicide.

That rules are not changed and unfair accommodations to prioritize inclusion over the competitive fair playing field priorities. I've pointed that if so every cis male who gets cut should be allowed to try out for womens sport as gender discrimination should not then be a bar to entry.

the discussion with uke and others basically boils to 'don't care about them...'

That's tragic. I'll highlight a different part from USA swimming:

Indeed, we know that trans suicide rates are very high. As USA Swimming acknowledges, it is imperative at "non-elite" levels that we focus on inclusivity to support this mental health.

USA swimming is the perfect embodiment of your position.........right?

Dave could maybe ask the high school girls he hangs out with what they think about transgender athletes.

No, I am saying this is the operative part of that announcement

"A three-person medical panel will now determine whether "prior physical development of the athlete as a male" gives transgender swimmers an unfair advantage, USA Swimming says.

There will also be testosterone tests for 36 months before competitions..."

and lip service to politics or not once that standard is accepted as a standard of 'FAIRNESS' it will become impossible to keep it limited.

What you are focusing on is the lip service of them being careful and going one step at a time to not get too much push back.


And look, I know you guys won' see that nor agree. Just as you could not see the advantage Lia had even with pictures put right in your face. You will spin and deny everything each and every time up until the newest change is implemented and then proclaim them 'fair' and pretend it is not all a shift to my position.

I get that, and know it will not stop.

It's fine to like one piece of the announcement but not the rest. You can like what they do at elite levels but NOT like what they do at non-elite levels. But it is utterly ridiculous to claim that they are the embodiment of your position when they very much disagree with you.

They agree with me. A complete and utter vindication of what I've been saying throughout this thread. Stop pretending they are the embodiment of your position.

Why would uke be concerned about harming anyone else involved in the sport in his effort to “solve” high suicide rates in the trans community? Harm to others isn’t in his purview.

Not that is matters much because USA swimming doesn’t seem to have any authority or control over high school or college swimming where the current controversies are playing out. Requiring t level testing for three years will certainly shorten the athletic window of opportunity for those that wish to declare their gender at the elite level.

"Playing sports with their friends" is not the same as making your high school team. The truth is that the emphasis on sports, especially artificially constructed games (as opposed to swimming, running and weightlifting) that makes multimillionaires out of a lucky few in capitalist countries (if the pitcher's mound was 80ft from home different people would probably star) is more unfair than some of the things you worry about.

It's not the same, but obviously it is a big part of the motivation.

I don't necessarily disagree, but again, I don't have to solve this problem. Most people in high school aren't playing sports because they are going to go on to be a multimillionaire. I want trans people to feel included and welcomed throughout society and that includes being able to play on local sports teams in highschool. This can be easily solved with or without solving these larger issues of the incrediably unequal nature of top level sports in the US.

How would "easily solve" it when each and every spot in a competitive sport that a trans woman takes from a cis woman, who otherwise would have made the cut is just a one for swap of who gets the opportunity to compete?

I simply do not think inclusion, at the expense of a Fair Playing Field, can be managed as an element of competitive sport.

This true regardless of whether we include or exclude trans people, there will always be a set of people one away from making the cut. This isn't a problem either of us has a solution to. However, I'm against systematically excluding one class of people, a group that is already extremely marginalized and suffering in high school.

I know. USA Swimming agrees with me, emphatically, and not you. Which is fine, but you should drop the act that they are the "embodiment of your position". Nonsense. Instead, they have given a ringing endorsement of my position ITT.

I should note that if the reason they were not good enough was because they didn't practice as long or hard as those who made the team, I have little sympathy for them. Actually, this is analogous to how I feel about people in general. It is the reason that it is hard to label me as liberal or conservative. I am in favor of more government help and stealing from billionaires via taxes than the typical liberal as long as the money goes to those born unlucky. But I diametrically switch attitudes when a person's dire circumstances are clearly due to the choices he has made (Even more so when that person mocks those who used some willpower. [ If you try to say that how much will power you have is not a choice, I'll ask whether being racist is a choice.])

Luckily, we have me here, someone who can solve problems uke master or Cuepee can't. A team should not have a specific number who makes the cut. Rather have measurable benchmarks. Super easy for things like track and field. Make the team if your 1500 meter time is below 4:15. It's harder but doable for team sports as well.

David are you arguing for an 'unlimited bench' based on all who can qualify to a minimum standard making the cut?

If you wish to change the metric from Cuepee's framing, the 'problem' changes with it: Now you are cutting people only just beneath your proposed cut offs. Unless something dramatic changes with school funding, there are always going to be people cut.

But not because someone at school transitioned. Also, those who don't meet the benchmark will not have to be put themselves through the trauma of a failed tryout. Nor will they be upset because they think the decider may be biased against them.

.

They don't think about them. They are too busy thinking about their dopey boyfriends who are planning to go to the University of Wisconsin, to major in biology, and then become like present day experts who don't properly use Bayes' Theorem when evaluating whether the virus came from a lab.

And make no mistake as this change is a direct result of the undeniable visuals of Lia and her wins.

Her destroying the rest of the field in a way that is reminiscent of a cis male competing against women, and making it look like the other gals have no business competing with her is the type of powder keg they realized was going to lose them and the trans athletes, as a whole, a ton of support and good will.

They could see how this would increasingly be on the front page of the major MSM outlets along with increasing outrage.

People are not playing the 'what? I don't see anything in those pictures... what do you see' games, some here try to play and require others play or they label them trans phobic.

No one has to lie to themselves about an undeniable and obvious difference and advantage, in the name of inclusion and it is foolish to do so.

This topic, more than any needs a very direct discussion about the challenges of putting 'inclusion' as a first principle in competitive sport where 'exclusion' has been one of the driving principles of competitive sport since its formation.

Indeed, but it doesn't solve the problem you wanted us to worry about:
Sorry, but someone not being able to do a 4:15 1500m is cutting people because they are not good enough. Either way you are cutting people.

Now you might be right that various reforms of the rest of the school sporting experience should occur too and I have no significant qualms with your suggestion. But I don't need it. I don't need to change highschool sports and deal with the various problems that exist in them to include trans people.

Good thing USA Swimming firmly rejects your framing and makes it completely clear that for non-elite competitive sport inclusion should be a firm part of it.

More terrible news: https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-...-law-rcna14725

Yet another GOP state banning trans girls from playing on school teams in K-12.

People ITT have objected to my focus on young kids playing sports on their school teams, while trying to pivot away from endlessly taking about Nia Thomas and Laura Hubbard in elite sport. Because the actual laws actually harming trans kids are laws like these, victims of the GOPs relentless culture wars. No dependency on age, on the sport, on any of Cuepees bullshit dichotomies about competitive sports, and nothing nothing nothing to actually help trans kids.