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Israel/Palestine thread Israel/Palestine thread

10-11-2023 , 09:16 AM
It wasn't a trap question. I want you to rethink how you're framing this war in purely religious terms because it's not as simple as that.
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10-11-2023 , 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jalfrezi
It wasn't a trap question. I want you to rethink how you're framing this war in purely religious terms because it's not as simple as that.
I think it is as simple as that. Muslims in Sydney and NYC and Toronto and London are passing out candy and celebrating this uprising..

Trying to present this as a fight between colonizers and the colonized is how AOC/BLM and our enemies want to Frame this war,
IMO that is bullshit. There have been Millions of Pogroms through Jewish History.. this is just another one.
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10-11-2023 , 09:26 AM
Many more Muslims are horrified by the attacks on Israel, and you're giving undue weight to those that make the most noise and create the biggest media buzz.

Here are some Jewish people in New York. Do you think they represent mainstream Jewish attitudes?

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10-11-2023 , 09:31 AM
I'm no fan of Putin but even Russia, traditionally an ally of Israel, is more nuanced in its take on this:

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Putin said the conflict could not be resolved without addressing issues such as the establishment of a Palestinian state.

He accused the US on Wednesday of sidestepping an established process of settling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and of trying to take matters into its own hands without resolving the fundamental issues.

“Part of the lands that the Palestinians consider and have always considered part of the original Palestinian lands is occupied by Israel at different times and in different ways. Mainly, of course, with the help of military force,” Tass quotes Putin saying.
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10-11-2023 , 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jalfrezi
Many more Muslims are horrified by the attacks on Israel, and you're giving undue weight to those that make the most noise.

Here are some Jewish people in New York. Do you think they represent mainstream Jewish attitudes?

Honestly Yes. I went to Yeshivas my whole life and 90% of the people I grew up with feel exactly the same way.

Most are pragmatic and career focused enough to only speak this freely in safe places around other Jews.

Understood it is imprudent to admit this and AOC is correct that it will outrage most of Humanity that Jews think this way but really those dudes in the video speak for me and virtually everyone I grew up with.. Both those are Yeshiva Jews... Not wishy washy Tikkun Olam Soros/BLM Jews.
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10-11-2023 , 09:40 AM
Many Jewish people in the world did not go to a yeshiva. You have a lot of difficulty in seeing outside your own bubble.
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10-11-2023 , 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by sickhuman
Honestly Yes. I went to Yeshivas my whole life and 90% of the people I grew up with feel exactly the same way.

Most are pragmatic and career focused enough to only speak this freely in safe places around other Jews.

Understood it is imprudent to admit this and AOC is correct that it will outrage most of Humanity that Jews think this way but really those dudes in the video speak for me and virtually everyone I grew up with.. Both those are Yeshiva Jews... Not wishy washy Tikkun Olam Soros/BLM Jews.
One says "Kill the Palestinians, all of them".

The other says "We've got to wipe them off the ****ing map".

Is that what you think?
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10-11-2023 , 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bubble_Balls
I'm not misquoting you, in the sense that I'm trying to create a straw man, which I would guess is the point of the rule if there is one. I'm deliberately pointing out that the argument cuts both ways, which is why it's a ridiculous argument. If mods want to police me for it fine, but I don't really care what you think. Again, Hamas believes it is reacting to Israeli crimes. Both sides are in the wrong even though there is truth to the greivences of each side. You don't get to start the clock on Saturday because it aligns with your ideology.
Really? I didn't see Israel launch an all out assault on Gaza by air sea and land last week, did you? So no it doesn't cut both ways as Hamas launched this assault aggressively and fully knew Israel would react by launching air strikes, after 1000 of their citizens had been murdered.
And just who tf gives a rat's arse what Hamas believes? Considering their recent atrocities, their stated aim in their own charter to Obliterate Israel and presumably its populace and their not allowing any elections since they took power 16 years ago? Why are you pandering to terrorist scum and implying their beliefs have legitimacy? Especially when they're happy to use the people they claim to represent as fodder? So who cares if they believe they're reacting? Does it have the same validity as their belief that Israel should and will be obliterated?


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Bad **** happens in war is disgusting handwaving. And those were crimes and would have been treated as such if the Allies had not won. I also doubt very much that surivivors care whether their family members were directly targeted or were merely inconsequentional "collateral damage".
Bad $hit happening in war is a Real World fact bruv. And yep, Curtis Lemay and Robert Macnamara stated that had the allies lost they'd have been hung as war criminals by Japan as another real world fact is to the victor go the spoils of war. Losers get done for war crimes and winners don't. That's the world we live in. I get you think it shouldn't be that way but it is. And Israel has the right to defend itself from aggressive assaults. Even if their enemy chooses to hide among its people.

I saw your posts earlier hanging on about stuff that happened in 1948 and this is why I view this Hatfield vs McCoys style conflict in bottom line terms as it's being going on long before we were born and will very probably continue long after we're dead. I'll choose the ones who have free elections and whose inhabitants have religious and sexual freedom, over the ones who aim to obliterate states and who forbid elections and whose inhabitants don't have religious and sexual freedom.
So spare me your moral relativism.


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Who the **** is asking you to consider choosing Hamas, lol? They are savages. Just recognize that your team are too, they just have better publicists. This is the problem. It's not easy black and white. There is no good guy here other than the civilians of both populations.
You're the one apparently respecting their beliefs, not me so yeah you do seem to be choosing even if you don't want to admit it.
And Israel aren't my "team", I'm not Israeli. I simply have more sympathy for the democracy rather than Hamas, or as you yourself called them, the savages.

Last edited by corpus vile; 10-11-2023 at 09:52 AM.
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10-11-2023 , 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jalfrezi
Many Jewish people in the world did not go to a yeshiva. You have a lot of difficulty in seeing outside your own bubble.
I wonder if it was appropriate to ask Black People during the George Floyd Riots if mainstream Black people distrusted all cops and then chastise them when they answered according to their Truth.
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10-11-2023 , 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jalfrezi
One says "Kill the Palestinians, all of them".

The other says "We've got to wipe them off the ****ing map".

Is that what you think?
No, its obv an emotional response after a Pogrom. Tough to be measured when ur Sister and Nieces are cowering in a bomb shelter hoping Jihadists don't beat down their doors and rape and Kill them. maybe you use exaggerated rhetoric.

All we want as Jews is to be left alone and not killed in our homes.
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10-11-2023 , 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by sickhuman
also metagame deterrent.

They kill 1200 of us. We raze a few dozen villages and get 30K bodies, maybe they think twice before the next pogrom.

Also at end of day. Belief of Likud/current ruling party is Islam wants Jews dead. Until we are all dead they are always coming.. We're not gonna placate them or give them rights or turneth the other cheek into them loving us or not trying to kill us.

good Interview here. Israeli Family that sent their Kids to progressive schools with Arabs and taught them Arabic and to all get along got massacred by Hamas..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWuDLI50pvM&t=15s

Israel had a President Rabin once who took more of your position but then a Yeshiva Bachur named Yigal Amir put a bullet in his head and we turned more down the Bibi door...
This is just genocide
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10-11-2023 , 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sickhuman
All we want as Jews is to be left alone and not killed in our homes.
Hey, that's what the Palestinians say they want too - maybe you have more in common than you first thought and fantasies of genocide can be put to one side?
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10-11-2023 , 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by caseIIclosed
This is just genocide
What do you call it when Jihadists decapitate 40 babies?
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10-11-2023 , 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jalfrezi
Hey, that's what the Palestinians say they want too - maybe you have more in common than you first thought and fantasies of genocide can be put to one side?
Muslims democratically elect Hamas type leaders anytime they are granted free elections, that is really not what they want.
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10-11-2023 , 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sickhuman
What do you call it when Jihadists decapitate 40 babies?
You have made a great argument against full support of Israel in this thread.
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10-11-2023 , 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by sickhuman
Muslims democratically elect Hamas type leaders anytime they are granted free elections, that is really not what they want.
Er, no they don't. Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia etc etc.

You're still trapped in your bubble.
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10-11-2023 , 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by caseIIclosed
You have made a great argument against full support of Israel in this thread.
I'm arguing in a liberal Politics forum. None of you were ever my allies.

Optics are bad now bec. Savages got pretty Girls so you have to pander to us for a few days but Framing will change and you'll come back around to supporting the poor oppressed Palestinians soon enough
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10-11-2023 , 10:14 AM
Liberals are typically supportive of Israel and its pursuits. It's the left who are pro-Palestinian, generally.
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10-11-2023 , 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jalfrezi
Liberals are typically supportive of Israel and its pursuits. It's the left who are pro-Palestinian, generally.
what you consider supportive and I consider supportive might not be the same.

Get out of your bubble bro
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10-11-2023 , 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by corpus vile
Really? I didn't see Israel launch an all out assault on Gaza by air sea and land last week, did you? So no it doesn't cut both ways as Hamas launched this assault aggressively and fully knew Israel would react by launching air strikes, after 1000 of their citizens had been murdered.
I didn't read passed this. Again, you can't start the clock on Saturday. I did see that of course and it was disgusting, as was the deaths and maiming of thousands of Palestinians over the years that continued largely ignored in the background all while Israel called itself a bastion of civil liberties and democracy in the Middle East. And again, that doesn't justify what Hamas did but it does help to explain that things like this don't come out of the clear blue sky. 9/11 didn't happen because the U.S. are really defenders of democracy in the Middle East. You will still have violence and extremism even if you don't stoke it but you'll have less. You have to face some hard truths if you want things to change. Thomas Friedman, who could not be accused by anyone of being a radical leftist, anti-war, or a terrorist sympathizer has a reasonable take here I think:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/o...el-hamas-.html

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I have covered this conflict for almost 50 years, and I’ve seen Israelis and Palestinians do a lot of awful things to one another: Palestinian suicide bombers blowing up Israeli discos and buses; Israeli fighter jets hitting neighborhoods in Gaza that house Hamas fighters but also causing massive civilian casualties. But I’ve not seen something like what happened last weekend: individual Hamas fighters rounding up Israeli men, women and children, looking them in the eyes, gunning them down and, in one case, parading a naked woman around Gaza to shouts of “Allahu akbar.”

The last time I witnessed that level of face-to-face barbarism was the massacre of Palestinian men, women and children by Christian militiamen in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut in 1982, where the first victim I encountered was an older man with a white beard and a bullet hole in his temple.

While I have no illusions about Hamas’s long-established commitment to the destruction of the Jewish state, I am nonetheless asking myself today: Where did this ISIS-like impulse for mass murder as the primary goal come from? Not the seizing of territory, but plain murder? There is something new here that is important to understand.

Since I can’t interview the Hamas leadership, I’m drawing on my experience in the region, and here’s how I see it.

While this operation was surely planned by Hamas leaders months ago, I think its emotional origins can be explained in part by a photograph that appeared in the Israeli press on Oct. 3. A few Israeli government ministers had gone to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, for their first official visit ever, to attend international conferences in late September and early October, and it got a lot of coverage in the Israeli press.

But having lived in both Beirut and Jerusalem, I was struck most by that unusual photo — an image that I knew would trigger completely different emotional reactions in both worlds.

It was taken by the team of Israel’s communications minister, Shlomo Karhi, who was attending a U.N. postal conference in Riyadh, as they were conducting a prayer service in their hotel room for the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. One of them took a picture of a colleague wearing a traditional Jewish prayer shawl and yarmulke while holding up a Torah scroll with the Riyadh skyline in the window beyond.

For Israeli Jews, that picture is a dream come true — the ultimate expression of finally being accepted in the Middle East, more than a century after the start of the Zionist movement to build a modern democratic state in the biblical homeland of the Jewish people. To be able to pray with a Torah in Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam and the home of its two holiest cities, Mecca and Medina, is a level of acceptance that touches the soul of every Israeli Jew.

But that same photo ignites a powerful and emotional rage in many Palestinians, particularly those affiliated with the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood, including Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. For them, that picture is the full expression of the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s supreme goal: to prove to all naysayers, indeed to rub their noses in the fact, that he can make peace with all the Arab states — even Saudi Arabia — and not have to give the Palestinians a single inch.
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As far as diplomacy goes, that has been Netanyahu’s life’s mission: to prove to everyone that Israel can have its cake — acceptance by all the surrounding Arab states — and eat the Palestinians’ territory, too.

I have no idea whether the Hamas leadership saw that particular picture, but they have been fully aware of the ongoing evolution it reflects. I believe one reason Hamas not only launched this assault now — but also seemingly ordered it to be as murderous as possible — was to trigger an Israeli overreaction, like an invasion of the Gaza Strip, that would lead to massive Palestinian civilian casualties and in that way force Saudi Arabia to back away from the U.S.-brokered deal now in discussion to promote normalization between Riyadh and the Jewish state. As well as to force the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Morocco, which were part of the Abraham Accords produced by the Trump administration, to take a step back from Israel.

The essence of Hamas’s message to Netanyahu and his far-right ruling coalition of Jewish supremacists and ultra-Orthodox is this: You will never be at home here — no matter how much of our land our gulf Arab brothers sell you. We will force you to lose your minds and do crazy things to Gaza that force the Arab states to shun you.

Pay attention: Hamas did not send operatives to the Israeli-occupied West Bank (and it has plenty there) to attack Jewish settlements. It focused its onslaught on Israeli villages and kibbutz farms that were not part of the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

“These were the homes of the people of pre-1967 Israel, democratic Israel, liberal Israel — living in peaceful kibbutzim or going to a life-loving disco party,” the Israeli writer Ari Shavit remarked to me. For Hamas, “Israel’s mere existence is a provocation,” he said. In one kibbutz alone, Be’eri, at least 108 people, including children, were just gunned down.

So how can America best help Israel now, besides standing behind its right to protect itself, as President Biden so forcefully did in his speech today? I think the U.S. needs to do three things.

First, I hope the president is asking Israel to ask itself this question as it considers what to do next in Gaza: What do my worst enemies want me to do — and how can I do just the opposite?

What Israel’s worst enemies — Hamas and Iran — want is for Israel to invade Gaza and get enmeshed in a strategic overreach there that would make America’s entanglement in Falluja look like a children’s birthday party. We are talking house-to-house fighting that would undermine whatever sympathy Israel has garnered on the world stage, deflect world attention from the murderous regime in Tehran and force Israel to stretch its forces to permanently occupy Gaza and the West Bank.

Hamas and Iran absolutely do not want Israel to refrain from going into Gaza very deep or long.

Nor does Hamas want the U.S. and Israel to proceed instead as fast as possible with negotiations to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia as part of a deal that would also require Israel to make real concessions to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, which has accepted Israel as part of the Oslo peace accords.

But for Israel to do what is most in its interests, not those of Hamas and Iran, will likely require some very tough love between Biden and Netanyahu. One must never forget that Netanyahu always seemed to prefer to deal with a Hamas that was unremittingly hostile to Israel than with its rival, the more moderate Palestinian Authority — which Netanyahu did everything he could to discredit, even though the Palestinian Authority has long worked closely with Israeli security services to keep the West Bank quiet, and Netanyahu knows it.

Netanyahu has never wanted the world to believe that there are “good Palestinians” ready to live side by side with Israel in peace and try to nurture them. For years now he’s always wanted to tell U.S. presidents: What do you want from me? I have no one to talk to on the Palestinian side.

That’s how Israel reached a stage where the increasingly costly — morally and financially — Israeli occupation of the West Bank has not even been an issue in the last five Israeli elections.

Or as Chuck Freilich, a former deputy Israeli national security adviser, wrote in an essay in Haaretz on Sunday: “For a decade and a half Prime Minister Netanyahu has sought to institutionalize the divide between the West Bank and Gaza, undermine the Palestinian Authority, the P.A., and conduct de facto cooperation with Hamas, all designed to demonstrate the absence of a Palestinian partner and to ensure that there could be no peace process that might have required territorial compromise in the West Bank.”

Lastly, I hope Biden is telling Netanyahu that America will do everything it can to help democratic Israel defend itself from the theocratic fascists of Hamas — and their soul brothers of Hezbollah in Lebanon, should they enter the fight.

But Netanyahu’s side of the bargain is that he has to reconnect himself with liberal democratic Israel, so the world and the region sees this not as a religious war but as a war between the frontline of democracy and the frontline of theocracy. That means Netanyahu has to change his cabinet, expel the religious zealots and create a national unity government with Benny Gantz and Yair Lapid.

Unfortunately, Netanyahu is still prioritizing his coalition of zealots, whom he needs to protect him from his corruption trial and to complete his judicial coup that would neuter the Supreme Court of Israel. That’s really messed up.

And it is a very important reason Israel was caught off guard in the first place. Netanyahu was so wedded to this personal agenda that he was ready to divide Israeli society like never before — and splinter his own army and air force in the process — to get control of the courts.

I promise you that if and when there’s an inquiry into how the Israeli Army could have so missed this Hamas buildup, investigators will discover that the Israeli Army leadership had to spend so much time just keeping its air force pilots and reserve officers from boycotting their service to protest Netanyahu’s judicial coup — not to mention the time, attention and resources they had to devote to preventing extremist settlers and religious zealots from doing crazy things in Jerusalem and the West Bank — that they took their eyes off the ball.

America cannot protect Israel in the long run from the very real threats it faces unless Israel has a government that reflects the best, not the worst, of its society, and unless that government is ready to try to forge compromises with the best, not the worst, of Palestinian society.

Last edited by Bubble_Balls; 10-11-2023 at 10:46 AM.
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10-11-2023 , 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Haywood
There's a disconnect here. Millions of people live under military occupation. It is ugly and brutal. That's not propaganda. You are failing to empathize with the people.
No I am not. I already said I would support their removal from the open air prison their Arab "brothers" have confined them to, with immigration to the West. I would consider my position much more empathetic than anything coming from the progressive left here or the Arab/Muslim world in general.

I would characterize the position of the above groups as having no empathy for the Palestinian people, and just callously using them as pawns in larger geopolitical games. IMO, the clear main over-arching emotional motivation from the Western progressive left and Arab/Muslim world is outgroup disgust towards Israel/Jews.
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10-11-2023 , 11:20 AM
Mass movement of people is also genocide and they, by all accounts, don't want to leave. So it would have to be forced.
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10-11-2023 , 11:26 AM
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10-11-2023 , 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by caseIIclosed
Mass movement of people is also genocide and they, by all accounts, don't want to leave. So it would have to be forced.
If America said sign up for the list, we'll pay for travel and give you 2 years accommodation to get you on you feet there would be a line from Gaza to Giza.
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10-11-2023 , 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by sickhuman
Honestly Yes. I went to Yeshivas my whole life and 90% of the people I grew up with feel exactly the same way.

Most are pragmatic and career focused enough to only speak this freely in safe places around other Jews.

Understood it is imprudent to admit this and AOC is correct that it will outrage most of Humanity that Jews think this way but really those dudes in the video speak for me and virtually everyone I grew up with.. Both those are Yeshiva Jews... Not wishy washy Tikkun Olam Soros/BLM Jews.
I like how "most are pragmatic and career focused enough" to reserve their calls for the mass extermination of Muslims/Arabs to private conversations. "Yes, we may be calling for the extinction of hundreds of millions of people, but let's keep the focus on our careers, daddy won't let me keep my job at his auto dealership if I keep being too noisy around our gentile customers about nuking the Muslim animals."
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