Dude if your Kibbutz got pillaged and destroyed by a group of murderous psychos, your FIRST purchase would be a gun too. That's the average person, I recognize maybe you don't.

Not sure where the moral outrage comes from here. There is literally no choice left. It's that or get burned in front of your kids like firewood.


Fight back in Gaza: that's a Trolly no
Protect yourself at home in Israel: that's a Trolly no

What is a Trolly yes? Hopes and prayers?

The other day when someone mentioned the Hamas guys calling their 19 year old kidnapped women "beautiful" you were outraged. Well up until you realized that was a thing that really happened. My 19 year old daughter being kidnap fodder to those dudes, I'm buying a gun for the house. No question.

So in other words, the Israelis are taking "human shields" and militarizing civilians spaces exactly like they accuse Hamas of doing.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/28/middl...hnk/index.html

Bomb used identified.

I can tell you with certainty this type of bomb does not, on its own, cause the kind of damage we saw in Rafah that killed 45 people.

Bibi is smoking the same fanatical lunacy cigars that hamas ODs on and his actions and his words show that. Its a battle of worst organizations on the planet.

How in the holy heck do you get to this conclusion?



The IDF putting weapons depots and anti-air batteries and vehicle storage right beside homes and schools would look like what you're talking about. That is not how Israel works. There is not a rocket launcher sticking out of a school window in Israel. You won't see mortar rounds stored in a Synagogue or nursery.

I can't visualize the leap you're trying to make with permitted guns in the home, but I look forward to you trying to make it make sense. Even in Canada I can have guns here at home with me given the right model. Many of my friends do (and they took gun safety classes etc as per the law).

Please read this and tell us how you are sorry for being so wrong

“ Some kibbutzim had also developed substantial high-tech and military industries. For example, in 2010, Kibbutz Sasa, containing some 200 members, generated US$850 million in annual revenue from its military-plastics industry.[5]”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz

Kibbutzim began to assume a more prominent military role. Rifles were purchased or manufactured and kibbutz members drilled and practiced shooting. Yigal Allon, an Israeli soldier and statesman, explained the role of kibbutzim in the military activities of the Yishuv:
The planning and development of pioneering Zionist were from the start at least partly determined by politico-strategic needs. The choice of the location of the settlements, for instance, was influenced not only by considerations of economic viability but also and even chiefly by the needs of local defense, overall settlement strategy, and by the role such blocks of settlements might play in some future, perhaps decisive all-out struggle. Accordingly, land was purchased, or more often reclaimed, in remote parts of the country.[16]


Kibbutzniks fought in the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, emerging from the conflict with enhanced prestige in the nascent State of Israel. Members of Kibbutz Degania were instrumental in stopping the Syrian tank advance into the Galilee with Molotov cocktails. Maagan Michael manufactured the bullets for the Sten guns that won the war. Maagan Michael's clandestine ammunition factory was later separated from the kibbutz and grew into Israel Military Industries.

So kibbutzes have billion dollar military industries, are used to defend against invasions, and they made bullets for guns.

You don't know with any certainty at all, you also don't know how crowded the target are was. Starving women and children in tents with no access to medical aid aren't going to hold up well against bombs.

Dude Sasa is EMPTY right now. I know the Plasan factory very well. They started working in plastics in the 80's after I left. They then got the contract to manufacture armor plates.

I said pages and pages back that SOME Kibbutz out of the 270+, do have modern industry. And SOME of that industry sells to the IDF and to other places globally. We've covered this.

This is like EVERY city man. In the city I live in now in Canada, there are companies that make software and hardware for our army and other armies. Is my city a military installation? There's a kevlar company within a 5 minute drive from me here. Do I live in a military base?

Right now there's a handful of people in Sasa, everyone is evacuated. Does that sound like an army base to you? All my people there are living with family elsewhere, or in hotels, or have permanently moved. Why? Because it's not an army base, it's a little town. And it's funny that of all the ones you chose, you chose the one I spent so much time in. So I think I have a sense...

People in this thread who have been to Sasa: Rafiki
People who talk about Sasa like they know what they're talking about: PW

Fantastic

It probably isn't, so why get your panties in a rut over one state when you know the US would never allow it?

Wait. Why are Jewish people entitled to a homeland? I missed that section of law school.

Because I'm against apartheid

So, what?

Jewish and Muslim people are already sharing the territories. Are you saying that Muslims don't have the right to self-determination on the dirt they legitimately occupy?

You act as if an Islamic republic would be inevitable. Negotiating one state would have to include a consensual constitution, of course. If it's impossible due to Islamic conservatism, the Palestinians get perpetual apartheid of their own making.

But this whole "river to the sea" on both sides is pretty insane -- to the point where everyone needs to stop talking about it if they wanna be taken seriously. Two states are also impossible, given the current state of settlements. And two continuous states are doubly impossible for obvious reasons.

Pretending there is a two-state solution is just silly, let alone demonizing those against it.

PW, Nir Oz specialized in plowing, irrigation, orchards, cattle (calves for meat) and chicken coops. The Nirlat factory produced of silicone sealants, paints and building materials, as well as a company for planning and engineering development.

Other tip of the country, but the entire point is this is NOT a military base. It's a farm with some modern industry to keep the lights on since they self-fund.

Kibbutz Be'eri, the other main slaughter house, supported themselves with a printing business. Photo albums, marketing materials, a dairy farm, some agriculture. There's no military anything there.

Again don't try to Israelplain our country to us man. It's insulting and ignorant at this point.

Here is a typical big bad kibbutz in the south. Tremble before the farmer's fields, barns, vineyards, community pool, etc.

This is what everyone is banging on the table to strike as a "military target"

vile...

Not being funny, but you just said you live in Canada. In preference to Israel, presumably.

Really not in preference tbh. Aging parents.

I will definitely find my way back. Sooner rather than later I hope.

A 250-lb bomb could well inflict such heavy casualties on a packed tented area (to which the Israelis had explicitly told people to evacuate). Stories about the bomb setting off a supposed arms dump could conceivably be true but sound like the kind of thing Israeli news managers tend to make up.

I wasn’t arguing that they were military installations. I argued that they may be valid targets under Geneva convention because of the different activities different kibbutzes partake in.

You think I am right or you think I am wrong?

Are kibbutzes valid Geneva convention targets due to their historical and present day aid to IDF manufacturing items of war?

Ah, well, family reasons would explain it.

please go asap. take them with you. bye

They are absolutely not valid military targets.

Look, let's take Gaza as an equivalent example. The second you pile weapons and armed combatants firing them into just about any structure, it's fair game (assuming some duty of care for the surroundings). You start launching rockets from a school roof, you are greenlit to hit the school. So likewise if you put an IDF division inside a Kibbutz and you fire mortar rounds from there? Fine, you are in the same situation in reverse and you will never get any objections from me. Hit the IDF division, that's your enemy. Same thing though, duty of care. That doesn't include rape and cutting of senior's heads and burning people in front of families though. That's just a mad massacre.

And if you fired guided missiles from Lebanon at the Plasan factory, you'd potentially be on an edge case worthy of a strike (and not something that applies to the other hundreds of Kibbutzim). Certainly Hezbollah could make a strong case for it (even though it's just civilians working in there assembling things and not soldiers).

But just like in the Gaza example, the rest of the time, that's just where civis live. There's no case for rampaging them and killing everyone you find inside. That's homicidal nonsense used By Oct 7th apologists. And I'll get perm'd before letting that grotesque stuff fly.

if lobbing missiles into refugee camps is fair game then anything is israel is a valid target. deal with it

Have you read the Geneva convention stuff on valid targets? If you support military operations then you are a valid target. Seems pretty clear.

I’m not talking about rampage stuff. I’m talking about legal warfare

72off, please take a break from this thread until 12:00 AM Eastern Time. Thank you.

Every single young person that puts their life on hold for 3+ years regardless of their actual hopes and dreams after that, does it for family reasons. Every reservist who put his uniform back on this past year did so for family. Almost everyone knew someone affected. It's all about family in the end.

What about the Palestinian families? That’s what held me back from putting a uniform back on

Nobody thinks they deserve the status quo, that's for sure. Their lives could and should look more like the other Arabs in Israel as a starting point (quality of life wise). Naturally that would be with them self-determing themselves, the same right the Jews ask for of themselves.