You could have stopped there, as I did.

It is not at all surprising that you are riddled with these insecurities that makes you project them on to others and in your reality you speak to all these as absolutes. In ukes worked he says he is not speaking for all women while factually speaking for all women by telling men in absolutes what women find creepy, etc.

There is no room for any different view (Carlin meme).

It is also not surprising you take it a step further such that even if a guy gets a positive response from a woman and she says thanks, or that was nice, she did not really mean it, and it was still an aggression that should not happen.

I don't really believe your wife told you that, but it is entirely possible you married your match in a person who is so self absorbed that she cannot accept a complement well. More so I think you more likely deemed to speak for her and all women as you are apt to do.

I am sorry uke, but you will not dictate to me, and hopefully not to others, where to approach or not, or talk to or not a women.

Especially when you say there are all sorts of 'appropriate places to do so' but you refuse to list them.

I know why you won't and that is because you don't want to lose the ability to be critical later, if you find out a guy did approach and it was not desired in that spot you deemed appropriate.

But i will challenge you one more time. Where are these "appropriate places"?

Yes, you have stopped with any attempt at intellectual honesty or debating in good faith.

He might have guessed that the women would not like that, even though he explicitly argues to make no attempt at guessing.

Its very simple.

You either totally disregard the feelings/wants/needs etc of the women you want to satisfy some desire or need you hold or you take the womens perspective into account before deciding how to proceed.

If you do the latter that still leaves a range of behaviours open to you.

To argue that you should do the former, as Cupee is but then qualify the range of your own behaviour is a nonsense logically inconsistent position.

You are correct, I just read back and I had conflated wrongly some of CV's posts where he also speaks in absolutes on behalf of all women, like uke does, with yours. My bad and apologies. Generally I do not agree with your positions and have replied why, but I always respect we can engage to agree to disagree over opinion topics like this.

My issue is almost always on this topic people who make pronouncement of fact when they are not, and people who speak for others, when they have no right to because they assume everyone should (or does) hold the same opinion as them (Carlin meme) or they are wrong.

If you want intellectual honesty or good faith debate you do not get to write to this first in reply to a prior earnest post by me...


You need to sack up and be prepared to get what you give and not be like the other mulling simps on here who feel free to ramp up rhetoric when THEY want, but then cry for decorum after.

I do because that post is utterly fine and you pretending it is not is raging intellectual dishonesty.

This is of course leveraged by the fact that you wont engage with the point of the post, you want to engage in obvious hand waving shenanigans about the post itself.

Lame.

And when you say something as obviously intellectually dishonest as this, will you cry if I don't engage with it earnestly?


I tell a guy 'it is not their job to try and assume a gals mood or desire' when it comes to approaching for a discussion which is an objective truth. Guessing is a fools game. She could be as eager for you to come say hello, as she could not be. You will NEVER know that. And it is not up a 3rd party to tell you 'Never do it' based on their assumption it is always a menace or wrong.

If you, the guy, feel you want to approach and say hello or pay a complement then do it. Take the risk knowing it is a risk and knowing it may be received well or not. That is all you can do.

ZOMG the HORROR.


However that you take my very reasonable and common sense stance above and try to suggest it is ambiguous towards touching, without invitation, in a way that would also constitute sexual assault (slapping her a$$) just shows you have no real intent to stick to substance and will use hyperbole and deception to try and GET ME, with misinformation, as you feel you have no substantive reply to make that genuinely engages the issue.

ti is a common rhetorical tactic, but I just won't play the game the way you want. If you want better, do better. if you don't, that is fine too, just don't cry about it.

Its none of those things.

Its not hyperbole, its called taking your argument to its extreme.

There are no tactics or any of that ****, that is all coming absolutely from you in an attempt to avoid dealing with the logical contradictions of your stance.

You are just handwaving and being evasive, those are the only tired seen it a million times utterly lame tactics going on.

You are the one crying.

For the record this is just a flat our lie.

"...You either totally disregard the feelings/wants/needs etc of the women you want to satisfy some desire or need you hold..." as that is not the only option on that side as is the attempt to frame it.

Here he tries to conflate things to pretend HE HOLDS the nuanced view ".. or you take the womens perspective into account before deciding how to proceed..." DESPITE those two aspects should always part of the decision making in ALL instances.

Doing a random act of kindness or paying a random compliment can also be completely selfless. it is not an either or 'disregard of feelings/wants/needs' and I can just as easily claim O.A.F.K is doing the same thing he tries to craft by assuming she wants the approach and he selfishly is disregarding the feelings/wants/needs and is NOT taking into account her perspective.


I want everyone reading this to step back from this and see how I refuse to speak for the women and how uke and O.A.F.K's arguments do not even exist without their assumptions of them acting as if they know the one universal truth of what the women want and desire. They have no position without that assumption.


My position is far more basic. As a guy you can only control you and act on what you want. So if, in a moment you feel the desire to introduce yourself to a lady or complement her, feel free to do so, if you are in a space where she has no reason to feel unsafe. Be prepared to accept her response no matter the form it takes. Full stop.


uke and O.A.F.K take that and from there layer on their assumptions about 'What women really want' and when they tell the man he was wrong, they do not look to the woman for her view. Nope. They don't care. They just speak for her and all women.

After the handwaving comes the absolute 100% strawman.

A complete post arguing against arguments I have never made.

Didn't i ask you prior to let us know when you are testing your wit or humour?

Is this another attempt along the lines of 'i know you are but what am I'?

Engage if you wish with the posts like I posted above where you seem to think you are using witty humour in an insulting way, and I will fire back in kind and that is fine. But sve us the 'oh you went full Toothsayer' protestations after the fact. Keep your mulling to your inside voice or don't, but just don't be surprised when they get in kind replies.

And as you cite that type of reply is 'utterly fine' , then i just consider it game on. I will ignore any future whinging about it from you complaining about some lack of decorum you have no intention to give.

Please quote me saying you should never approach.

You cant.

That is not the argument I am making.

I am just picking apart the logical inconsistency of your folksy common sense argument which makes no sense.

You make woat arguments.

The challenge you have is that your posts were in the context of addressing my posts and view. And it was you who ignored my arguments and points I never made, while trying to reframe it in a way, that if I did would be indicting. You dishonestly tried to make it look like I was making those points when I never have.

You keep on with this weird line.

I was not using witty humour at any point, please stop saying that as its just a brazen falsehood.

I was just using colloquial terms to spell out the logical extension of your position.

You have made those points, its literally what you are arguing for.

The point is that you dont understand the extension of your own position.

If you did you would not keep making woat arguments.

Everything I have said in reply to you is in absolute good faith.

this is just stupid. You, presumably agree that men shouldn’t be catcalling women on the streets, shouldn’t be slapping their asses, etc. right? Is that also speaking for all women? Of course not.

Noting that your behavior is disrespectful isn’t some insidious claim about speaking for all women, this is a ludicrously bad argument.

The obvious reality of this is above his pay grade it seems.

this thread is painful to read as it degenerates, like many, into arguing to validate one's ego,

'...see, I'm not a pathetic loser that can't get a girl, did you see the way I tore into those posters on 2+2! I am awesome!...' as they return to playing video games in their mom's basement.

how about we just give our opinions, which is what the internet does, and leave it at that.

My opinion: If a person can't get a partner in this world of 8 billion people the most probable reason is they are flawed to the point that no one wants to be around them. You can't get a girlfriend? Quit being a dick.

I am just giving my opinions.

The funniest thing about this thread is cupee giving out how to pick up girls advice.

M8, its not a problem for me and never has been.

Not that I expect an honest reply but I will break down again, the utter dishonest tactic being used in this post.




What you see above is an attempt to paint my position as a binary one. And on this side of the binary O.A.F.K. knows exactly what ALL women want/need/feel and I am disregarding that.

It is not possible in his binary that maybe he is wrong in what they want/need/feel and I am right.

Or more accurately I take a position that it is impossible for any man to know what a woman wants/needs/ feels with regards to the topic of a random given compliment or introduction.

Again my position (not O.A.F.s assumed one for me) is we guys should NOT presume to speak for women or that we know and as such we can only act upon our own desire to compliment or introduce ourselves and do so respectfully.


This is another false presumption. It again assumes OAFK is the sole holder of TRUTHS and can determine what the woman's perspective is. How does he know in any moment if she is open to or desires an approach or is happy with the compliment or not.

All of his dictates and actions and reactions are ASSUMED on her behalf. Not one thing he says comes from action or reaction. Did she gladly engage in the chat? Did she further it? Everythign he says requires no such input.

My position is it is folly and wrong for a guy to even try to assume a Woman's perspective on something like an introduction or random complement, again if done in a very open and public safe area. a guy SHOULD NOT presume that for women, denying women an ability to exist without men dictating their thoughts and desires.

And this is the most disingenuous one of all his points.

What "range of behaviours are open to you", that differ from what I am saying and what in what I am saying should be on the 'prohibition' list?

You are doing what uke is doing there and creating a pretense 'there are lots of places appropriate to approach' while saying this one is off limits but not then explaining which are the 'ok ones'. And it is easy to see why, as any suggestions you guys then make will be open to the same types of critique and 'what if' she is does not want it there either assumption game.

But sure go ahead and explain the 'range' of acceptable behaviours'??


LIE.

I don't argue the former. I never did. Saying something is 'unknowable' does not then assume what you do. Again, you are completely unable to distinguish that you are not the one disregarding her feelings/wants/needs.

I take an agnostication position to mind reading. I am open to body language, signs and signals. Not a perfect science. Does not have to be. It is all we got and it is enough. Speak your mind. Make your approach respectfully. Be open to feedback and then courtesy in accepting any reply you get.

That is all that can be expected and not the this assumption. speaking on behalf of all women, mind reading business you and uke are arguing for.

So yea you keep making the same logical fallacy.

According to you Its not correct to make assumptions about an unsolicited advance that is qualified in a ton of ways which are all of course based on assumption.

Being respectful is an assumption.

Your whole approach is based on making a ton of assumptions about the womens "mind" whilst berating others for simply doing that.

How can you not see this?

I agree. If cupee spent as much time and effort polishing his game and self improvement as he does going back and forth in this absurd forum, he would be getting more tail than Frank Sinatra.