what? I constantly what? you are straying from reality again
chiefsplanet what? dude, you genuinely need to rein it in. You just posted about "my constant blah blah blah cages, chiefsplant (which i didn't even know existed until goofyballer linked it in ATF), and a list of conservative stuff like guns, bannon, etc

all of this in response to claims the left has moved further left. As weak as the argument about california colleges being free in the past is, at least you were attempting to formulate something that could be considered a reasonable counter to the claim the left has moved further left. All this other stuff is bizarrely off topic and mostly irrelevant.

Trump did make a speech like Raegan's and I linked it before, and again itt.

You even responded to it acknowledging that he did say nice things but didn't mean it... before launching off in to some off topic stuff based on defensive tribal instinct

Your full post here. Believe it or not you also launched in to some off topic rant about chiefsplanet later in the same post

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1822

Can we stop the multi-quotes? Nobody reads them and they're a PITA.

Trump says everything at one point or another. It makes perfect cover for how he can appeal to literal nazis but then be exonerated when the need arises. Reagan never had anything like the rhetoric Trump has against migrants. The two are not remotely the same on immigration and no serious person thinks they are. Again - I can't imagine you honestly think the Republican party hasn't moved massively right on immigration. You seem way too well informed to believe that.

Other than that I don't see a lot of actual points in there.

I see you're not going to attempt to counter my list of ways the Republicans have gone off the rails to the right with a similar list from the left? If you're right that Dems have gone off the rails to the left, it shouldn't be that hard to come up with. Those were just off the top of my head. Gimme your top dozen.

Not sure the Trump thread it the best place for it but Ben Shapiro losing it while he takes a kicking from Andrew Neil in a BBC interview is a sight to behold.

I put it in the dark web thread - was probably the wrong place. But yeah it was amazing. He goes straight into whining and victimhood and blaming the ref. What a snowflake.

Ummmm. I thought you were trying to disprove the claim that the dems have moved further left? You have been presented mountains of evidence. For some reason, even after it is being tediously explained to you, that pointing at republicans isn't an actual counter argument. It's off topic. Try to control your tribal instincts

Again

What?

That never happened. I claimed the dems moved. You made claims about the right. I just corrected inaccuracies like failing to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration or that Trump doesn't say things like Raegan did about legal immigrants. I probably shouldn't engage your off topic points at all, you seem genuinely confused as is

Sorry I thought you were making your case that Republicans hadn't moved by holding up Trump's legal immigration speech as an example.

So do you admit then that Republicans have moved to the right? Or not? Do you think Dems have gone more off the rails to the left or Republicans to the right?

Also still waiting for the top dozen ways Dems have gone off the rails to the left instead of all this gish gallop. Why is that so hard to come up with? I made my list. Let's line them up and compare.

Hitler was supported by leaders of industry, the class of people who also decided who could and couldn't vote. Plato had some fanciful ideas about the smartest people making decisions. That can't really happen. The most powerful people make the decisions period. Power can be spread more or less broadly. And it's not that closely tied to test scores.

The second thing you said confuses me.

He's now realised how much of a fool he made of himself and to be fair, has kinda admitted it.

Saying that there are lots of Dems in the media is one thing, but you then go on to claim that the reporting is also skewed, presumably I guess because the sneaky dems can't be trusted to impartial when that's their literal job. Regardless that is abjectly false.

Yeah it's such a horrible situation that the US is the world's largest economy and China is their #2 trading partner. Half the world wishes they could get screwed like that.

And I know you probably skipped the day at business school when they taught you how 'trade' works (we know for a fact Trump did), but I did go that day and I learned that as a general rule none of the things known as 'trades' happen unless BOTH parties like the deal.

So yeah a pretty typical does of fail from the right, just as we've become accustomed to.

free college, proof positive that democrats are going FAR LEFT, as free college has been seen in leftist stalwart states like OKLAHOMA since 1992..

Trivially obvious, not even worth discussing really. Let's just assume the premise and move on.

I already posted the survey showing that in 1994 62% of Democrats agreed that "immigrants today are a burden on our country because they take our jobs, housing, and health care." In 2014 only 27% of Democrats agreed with this statement. In '94 32% said that immigrants strengthen our country because of their hard work and talents, in 2019 83% of Democrats agree with this statement. Between 2006 and 2018, the number of Democrats who think legal immigration should be increased doubled from 20% to 40%.

But maybe you don't care about voter attitudes, only actual legislation. Okay. In 1996 Bill Clinton signed into law the "Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act." This law made many changes to US law, including restricting states from offering in-state tuition at public institutions to illegal immigrants. It also made it easier to deport illegal immigrants and made it more difficult for illegal immigrants to become legal. I don't think a contemporary Democratic president would sign this bill today.

No, I'm not claiming any kind of equivalence here. Your view just contradicts the evidence and doesn't make sense. According to you, the result of the ideological sorting of the two parties is that as more conservatives joined the GOP and liberals left, the GOP became more conservative, but also that as more liberals joined the Democratic party and conservatives and moderates left, it also became more conservative. Huh?

Obama literally just got done deporting more people than any other president. He also, as the right likes to point out, started the family separation policy. In what universe is that moving radically left?

I'm really not that interested in how people respond to surveys as that was never my main thrust, nor the original context.

I made it clear what I'm talking about. I even made a list of 12 major policy positions, most with major implications in the real world (not campaign promises or rhetoric). If the theory that Democrats have moved far left is also true it should be pretty easy to come up with a complementary list of 12 items, no?

I agree you can make a case that a major candidate promising free college is a bit of a departure from past Democratic primary seasons (other than 2016). Granted.

However, a majority of Democrats oppose him on that. Meanwhile try to imagine any Republican presidential candidate coming out against unfettered gun access, or illegalizing abortion, or believing climate change, or pretty much anything on my list. Instant career suicide. But yeah the Dems are definitely the radical ones right now. o_O

Also Bernie hasn't even gotten the nom, and who the hell knows if he could even implement it when he becomes president. Obama somehow miraculously managed to get the Republicans' own health care plan implemented over their non-stop temper tantrum and it still took several consecutive miracles for it to happen.

Which by the way - holy crap add #13 to the list. Republicans literally were for the ACA until 2008. It was implemented as Romneycare. It was their counter-proposal to Hillarycare in 1994 (but as our dearly departed ikes always liked to claim - that proposal was totally insincere and just BS to buy time - awesome party you got there). Holy crap have they moved right on healthcare. And the Dems even moved right too - from Hillarycare to the Republicans' own plan.

Seriously feel like I'm taking crazy pills when people seem to suggest the real problem right now is Dems have gone too far left. I get that the low-info types actually believe that. But come on.

No, we're talking about US Dem voters.

There have been politicians around forever who have espoused positions like free health care and free college (hence those things being enacted in countries other than the USA for like forever). What's different about now vs, say, 1960, is that those arguments are gaining so much traction.

And why? Because for all the economic growth the USA has seen over the last 40 or 50 years -- trillions of dollars of it -- the amount of that seeing its way to the average man on the street has been steadily shrinking.

Which is not a surprise of course. The more you concentrate wealth in a smaller and smaller group, the more likely it is that those left outside band together and seize it back. Sometimes that's by force, as in the case of 1780s France, and sometimes it's by legal means, such as electing very left leaning politicians. But either way arguing that the have nots should just shut up and take it in the ass is not a winning strategy no matter who is saying it.


No, but it's cute that you think that. In reality the tax cut was pretty much 100% Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. Written by them, campaigned for by them, and ultimately passed into law because of them. Trump was just their useful idiot. Remember what Mitch said, "The one good thing about Trump is that he'll sign whatever we put in front of him."

Because at the end of the day the guy that you voted for because he was the 'anti-establishment' radical who would take on the entrenched GOP interests lasted for about sixteen nanoseconds. The second he realized that he would accomplish nothing without those two dudes he capitulated to them faster than Sarah Sanders reaching for a Dorito.

Trump made massive promises on healthcare. He often said it got the biggest response at his rallies. He's done nothing except try to wreck Obamacare since he got into office, and replace it with nothing but thoughts and prayers.

And none of his constituents care because nothing matters.

Also, i know no one is interested in facts, but the Obama administration only separated children from their parents in situations where they believed the children were in an unsafe environment. The whole idea of separating them as a deterrent to claiming asylum (which is 100% legal by the way) is totally on Trump and Co.

In before lack of cruel intent proves the Dems have gone radically off the rails to the left.

Perfect example of chasing the center as it flies off to the right.

Nah Well Named did post some news articles from the time where Obama mentioned the separation as a strategy to deterr migrants.

I don't think Obama was radically more pro-immigration than previous Democrats, although I do think he was more so than Bill Clinton, based on DACA and the Gang of Eight bill. I do think the Democratic party has shifted significantly to being more pro-immigration today than it was back in the 90s.

Okay.

Regarding the bolded, you have not. I challenged one of your premises - that it was ludicrous to claim that Democrats have moved significantly to the left in the last 20 years. I've also provided survey data on over a dozen policy and ideology questions where Democrats are further to the left than previously, in some cases with large shifts. You've said you don't care about this survey data, but haven't provided any alternative evidence to support your own view. Not much more for me to say.

Looks about the same:

I have no idea what that chart is even looking at and neither does anyone else here. What voters self-identify as being for or against when polled is one thing. I'm talking about actual stances and implemented policy from the Republican party in power - which has shifted way right on stuff like gun control, abortion, etc. - and stuff like calling the press the enemy of the people - which is new.

My test is simple. I listed 12 things (13 + UHC) off the top of my head that I think Republicans have gone off the rails. So far no one has really tried to refute the list or provide one of their own for Democrats. It's a pretty simple ask.

It's like in the old forum days when libertarians would rail about Progressivism, so I'd list like 30 policies that were highly controversial at the time, yet we take for granted as common sense now. No one could ever provide a counter list. vhawk mumbled something about survivor bias and that was the best anyone could do. I even gave them Prohibition and the 55-MPH speed limit.

This is a good burn because I also have no idea who Trump is referring to

So Trump has read something.