British Politics - Page 57 - Politics and Society -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Although if the right moves to the left then the left is winning. Politics is all about moving the center. What we mustn't do is allow the left to the move to the right because then the center goes the wrong way.

If we want to move it faster then yes left wing parties have to win power more often more and that does mean stopping the divisive thingy. Not taking it's natural voters for granted is also vital.

The left would be winning if that was what he actually said, which was that the right may be moving leftwards on economic issues (HS2 is a distinctly "Non-Right" plan) but not on immigration, where thankfully (from me at least) the left is so far standing firm.

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02-15-2020 , 09:07 AM

#1402

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,105

I agree. Although the left failed to make the strong argument for immigration when it really mattered and new labour was frequently awful on immigration - I'd accept the defense that there weren't from the left. As indicated by the shift in opinion after brexit, we can make big progress on this issue as well if we stick at it.

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02-15-2020 , 09:10 AM

#1403

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,105

and progressives can win the argument on many 'cultural' issues. In a few years we went from thatcher's Section 28 to the tory pm leading the push for equal marriage laws.

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02-15-2020 , 09:21 AM

#1404

Husker

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Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 12,926

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

Can't believe you're still trying to peddle this nonsense.

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02-15-2020 , 09:23 AM

#1405

Elrazor

losing momentum

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 13,876

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

just don't expect Birmingham to become the "Midlands powerhouse" without other plans.

HS2 will be geographically close to University of, the NEC, Birmingham Business Park and the Airport. I'm assuming this isn't coincidence, and they do indeed have "other plans".

I know most people have a low opinion of politicians, but I'm also assuming the overwhelming support this project has in parliament is underpinned by the idea that "other plans" are obviously an implicit part of the project, and not just to turn the second biggest city in the country into a "commuter town".

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02-15-2020 , 09:27 AM

#1406

jalfrezi

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I'd still prefer to see Phase 2 first and have grave doubts it will ever happen given the terrible political leaders we've had for a while, but if that's your position now we can agree not to differ.

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02-15-2020 , 09:27 AM

#1407

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Husker

Can't believe you're still trying to peddle this nonsense.

From your quote

Quote:

It looks beyond the UK and the main thrust of the article is that while right wing parties can move to the left on economic issues ...

It's not nonsense at all. That is the center moving in front of your eyes.

I'd like it to move faster but partisan stuff aside it's policy that matters and the more leftwards the better.

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02-15-2020 , 09:28 AM

#1408

jalfrezi

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 13,281

More good news - Thornberry is officially out of the leadership contest.

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02-15-2020 , 09:30 AM

#1409

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,105

Even more good news

Quote:

Boris Johnson delays trip to see Donald Trump

Johnson had been expected to visit the White House in January as part of a high-profile visit to kick off talks on a post-Brexit trade deal with the U.S., but the trip has been repeatedly delayed. “We expect the prime minister to travel to the U.S. in June around the G7 summit,” the official said.

The relationship between the pair of leaders is thought to have suffered a setback after Johnson defied Trump by allowing Chinese tech firm Huawei to build parts of the British 5G network. The latest delay — and effective downgrading of the trip — will fuel speculation that the long-promised trade deal might end up on the backburner.

https://www.politico.eu/article/bori...-donald-trump/

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02-15-2020 , 09:40 AM

#1410

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrazor

This is where Labour's new leadership will have an important role. if boris isn't already keen enough to win the north then Labour have to develop serious proposals of their own. That will either help labour win future elections or may force the tories hand which while not ideal for labour winning, is still a victory (moving the center blah di blah).

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02-15-2020 , 09:43 AM

#1411

jalfrezi

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The real question here is whether one can imagine Cummings taking orders from Trump where there's disagreement. The oversized glove puppet is largely irrelevant.

I can't, unless somehow an election depends on it.

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02-15-2020 , 09:49 AM

#1412

Husker

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Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 12,926

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

From your quote
It's not nonsense at all. That is the center moving in front of your eyes.

I'd like it to move faster but partisan stuff aside it's policy that matters and the more leftwards the better.

You seem to be creating your own narrative here and ignoring what is in the article. It isn't the centre moving at all, it's right wing parties moving a bit nearer the centre with their economic policies to gain power.

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02-15-2020 , 09:52 AM

#1413

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,105

There's no fixed center. That's the illusion

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02-15-2020 , 11:30 AM

#1414

Husker

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Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 12,926

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

There's no fixed center. That's the illusion

Your illusion is that when a hard left Labour party lose they've somehow dragged the Conservatives to the left and that is a win. It's a myth. The idea that a Cummings controlled Conservative government is a win for the left is ludicrous.

You should have a read at Ashcroft's report on why Labour lost the election and read the words of those who deserted the party at the last election. They confirm what was written in the article I posted. I don't see any talk from them about it being a win for the left, it's more a case of anger and disillusionment about what Labour has become and a fair bit of that is cultural.

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02-15-2020 , 11:38 AM

#1415

jalfrezi

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 13,281

Quote:

Calls have been made for an investigation after photographs emerged linking a newly elected Tory MP with two alleged far-right activists.

Dehenna Davison, the MP for Bishop Auckland and a prominent member of the party’s new contingent of northern representatives, was pictured holding a County Durham flag with Andrew Foster, a man described by anti-racism campaigners as a “Muslim-hating extremist of the very worst kind”.

The images, revealed following an investigation by the campaign group Hope Not Hate show the MP with Foster at a party celebrating Brexit in a pub on 31 January. At the same event she was also pictured with Colin Raine, a former Tory activist banned from the party after allegations that he was behind a far-right protest and made Islamophobic comments online...

An online account, thought to be Raine’s, alleges he met with Davison in April at a public event, a month after the party said he was banned from rejoining.

On 12 December, the same account also posted a clip of Davison purportedly filmed at a local pub as the exit polls came in, describing her as “our candidate”.

Separately, Facebook pictures emerged allegedly showing Foster burning a Qur’an and posing next to a racist message that read “**** Pakis”.

Hope Not Hate claims Foster also attended rallies organised by the English Defence League and Britain First and is alleged to have commented on a picture of Adolf Hitler on Facebook, saying: “We need some more of this spirit in our town mate … show these f***ers once and for all.”

A Twitter account that allegedly belonged to Foster and has since been suspended also called the dictator a “great man” and wished him a happy birthday.

New Tory MP pictured with alleged far-right activists

I wonder how worked up PGUK will get over the institutional Islamophobia in the Tory party. Probably not very much.

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02-15-2020 , 11:58 AM

#1416

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Husker

That's not my illusion. Tories winning this election was a disaster for the left

But Boris raising minimum wage (if they still do) will be a win for the left and an example of the center moving. I'll even give tony blair his credit.

Forgive me I decline another discussion about why labour lost.

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02-15-2020 , 12:04 PM

#1417

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,105

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

I'm just very happy not to see boris cuddling up to trump too much or too quickly. Trump winning again will be a disaster for the uk (among everybody else) but we may fend off the worst of his influence until then and
can hope the usa get their **** together.

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02-15-2020 , 12:30 PM

#1418

jalfrezi

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 13,281

Even if he loses Trump has shown potential successors another route to power that's deeply disturbing and that has fundamentally degraded democratic conventions there for the foreseeable future. But that's another story.

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02-15-2020 , 12:43 PM

#1419

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,105

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalfrezi

Sort of although anyone who needed trump to happen to the usa before the route was clear and likely hadn't been thinking about it very much.

But as you say, another story. For now we can just hope for trump to lose.

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02-15-2020 , 01:23 PM

#1420

jalfrezi

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 13,281

These things (inadequate constitution, paranoid and entitled electorate, steep post Watergate decline in Republican presidents etc) were much more noticeable from afar and the result predictable, but they're now obvious to many Americans too, though possibly too late to save their democracy.

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02-15-2020 , 01:36 PM

#1421

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47,105

Their democracy has long needed serious surgery. A law of moses type system always has an expiry date and any sort of popular vote for such a powerful presidential role is a matter of when not if.

I doubt either of us will be holding our breath.

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02-15-2020 , 01:57 PM

#1422

jalfrezi

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 13,281

True.

And how nice to be able to agree with you about things.

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02-16-2020 , 05:25 AM

#1423

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

Have we started on any trade deals yet? Curious to know how that's going from all perspectives.

Quote

02-16-2020 , 05:26 AM

#1424

SiMor29

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,985

On the plus side, property prices have at least stabilised. Still waiting for a rebate on the 100k value lost due to Brexit.

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02-16-2020 , 08:24 AM

#1425

Hoopie1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26,120

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiMor29

Have we started on any trade deals yet? Curious to know how that's going from all perspectives.

I see Boris is wailing about the EU being mean, yet two months ago he insisted we had an oven ready deal about to be baked.

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