Well that's the kind of non-answer I would have expected from others, but I'm disappointed in it coming from you.

If things were the opposite, do you think LGBT people should be happy at being told to stand in the back while the cishets congratulated themselves for not being gay?

Man I swear people on this forum used to know how terrible of an argument "imagine hOw maD pEOpLe WULD bE aT whItE hiSTorY mOnTH" actually is.

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com...etry-breaking/

Granted if you understand spontaneous symmetry breaking it's not likely you're a social conservative.

I wasn't the one marginalizing someone else's experiences.

Sorry, it is hard to take seriously your squawking about being marginalized because of this anecdote where you where in a pre-dominantly LGBT space and they, uh, checks notes, cheered being LGBT.

Now two prominent swimmers speak out. It will grow

Cribbed this from the moderation thread as it seemed more appropriate to continue the conversation here:

Are we really? Any new conversation about this inevitably goes back to Laurel Hubbard and Lia Thomas, which highlights events that occurred three years ago and one year ago. If this is a growing phenomenon, it seems to be doing so quite slowly - a lot more slowly than the outrage over it, which is probably making it seem like it's happening far more frequently than it is. That's not to suggest there's not an increase in edge cases, because of course there will be when more transgender people feel comfortable coming out. My argument is that this isn't exploding into some immediate huge societal crisis that requires governmental overreach like we see in some states. I see no reason to believe that experts and those directly impacted can't work this out as we go.

You sure have latched on to the loaded phrase "mutilating and castrating". But as I showed a few days ago, the number of children getting surgery is quite small, and I've seen nothing to suggest that this is happening with anyone younger than teenagers. Let's bring those numbers back; over the 5 year period from 2017-2021:

776 children 13-17 underwent masectomies.
56 children 13-17 underwent genital surgery.

Now that of course doesn't tell the whole story. Did half of those surgeries occur in 2021, indicating a sharp upward trend, or is it a slower upward trend, or not upward at all? Were most of those surgeries on very mature 16 and 17 year-olds after carefully determining that they were making a very well-informed decision, or are there a whole lot of 13 year-olds doing this with very little oversight? Some of those possibilities concern me more than others. These are nuances that are completely absent from the right wing talking points, and they seem to be from yours as well.

This is one of the most bizarre things you constantly bring back. First of all, just because people don't all bang on about a handful of violent incidents from one particular community doesn't mean that they accept it. And secondly, why do you think this is such an important point? is there not some level of violence from a small part of pretty much any community that is fighting for something? Acknowledging and condemning such violence is important, but there's no reason to then let those violent acts colour our perception of the entire community.

So looping back to the start of this...why? We can do better than listen to the politicians and talking heads who will weaponize any extreme case they can find to stir up their base. That's all these "culture wars" are. We're in an uncomfortable place right now with transgender rights. Those of us who didn't grow up in a world where being transgender was accepted like it is now have some adjusting to do. But just because it seems a bit strange and uncomfortable doesn't mean there's a crisis that has to be responded to with derision, belittling, and lawmakers jumping in with legislation designed to play into the fears that they are actively stoking. Solving a "problem" that they have invented is the worst kind of politics, and a sad number of people are buying into it. And this leads to things like we're seeing at our own school board, where parents are trying to take us back to the 80s and 90s (and earlier times) with demands to ban books they think are too explicit - and coincidentally , they always happen to be books that involve queer topics. This moral outrage is threatening to take us backwards - I'd love to see people stop feeding into it.

But you would think LGBT people were being marginalized if the opposite had happened where they were a minority, so it's also hard to take you seriously on this issue.

There is no such thing as a mature 16 or 17 year old person. That's why they aren't allowed to do other adult things.

I have enough anecdotes from meeting 18 year olds traveling South America by themselves to suggest that this isn't true. Some people grow up faster than others.

Well, that's 18, not 16 or 17.

But yes, some 16yos are more likely more mature than some 18yos.
But society doesn't try to make a judgement call about anything else.

I couldn't have my parents and my doctor vouch for me at 17 so I would be allowed to vote, and that is a decision that has effectively no effect on anyone.

What I am sure no teen is mature about is anything related to sex.

There has definitely been a sea change over the past few months on these issues. Situations such as Anheuser-Busch stock tanking and pretty much every Disney movie bombing at the box office has emboldened people to speak out, and more importantly those arguments are being platformed rather than cancelled.

Re Disney, it's just a backlash against wokeness in general, not specifically the Trans issue.

I’d encourage you to get out and interact with teenagers these days. Their experiences are much different than ours. I’m presuming that you don’t have kids, but if your view on teenagers is limited to your own personal experience and what you consume in the media, it’s going to be very warped

I don't consume any media about teens. I do have a teenage nephew.

Of course every generation's experiences are different, but how would that make them more mature or more certain about their sexuality?

Cmon Rob! You need to get out there and talk about sex with teenagers more! gee whiz, whats wrong with you?

seriously wtf kinda comment is that?

Yeah get out there at your local junior high and talk sex with the kids. You be in the back of the squad car 🚨

I would love to do this, but I'm not supposed to go within 2000 feet of a school.

I disagree I think with powerful documentaries like What is a Women and Ciswomen speaking out about competing against trans women voices will be heard. On a note I saw the 15 minute clip of what is a woman and would like to see the rest .

The overall problem with the trans religion movement is they want no discussion on any part of it.

A college gal wrote a paper on trans competing against cis females and got a zero for using the term Biological Females as the word is offensive Like gimme a fn break


I also believe Riley Gaines has the right to speak about the issue on a campus she was invited to speak without experiencing physical violence and threats

I just said interact with them, not talk about sex. If you are basing your understanding of the youth of today based on what you see in social media,
You obviously have a super warped perspective.

I mean it’s telling where you mind goes. You know that you can talk to people, even teenagers, without talking about sex? Doing so would give you some shared experience about what the life of youth looks like today. I was at three graduation parties today and let me tell you, kids today are a lot different than when I was young. If you make an effort to actually interact with some you will learn a lot more than passively consuming content on the internet or whatever.

Is this true and if so why can’t you go near a school?

I think the same is true for AS, but either way there is large if not complete overlap between trans activism and woke.

No, that was a joke (that I was a registered sex offender). But the other guys are right that if I went to somewhere around a school and started chatting up teenagers I would be looked on very suspiciously and probably be told to leave (if not something worse).

I still don't understand your point though. How are teenagers today different? Do you really think they are significantly "more mature" than teenagers were 30 years ago?
Enough that they should be trusted to make major decisions like operations and such?

Two things in response to this. First of all, I don't know if there's anyone posting in this thread that is against the idea of there being standard rules at highly competitive levels - and many sports have those already. And secondly to repeat myself, my main point was that this isn't exploding into some immediate huge societal crisis that requires governmental overreach like we see in some states - nothing you've said here really changes that IMO.

Seems rather silly to me to be so certain that 18 is a line which should never be crossed, but we can agree to disagree on that. The thing is, even if you want to take a hard line like that, there's no need for laws that forbid any gender-affirming care for youth, and especially not ones that forbid it for adults.

I'm not sure what you were disagreeing with here.

Annnnnnd we're back to using a few extreme examples to paint the entire community in an unflattering light.

I don't know what's going on in your life that has you seemingly so increasingly bitter towards the trans community, but I hope you're able to get past it, for your own sake, really.

You are correct schools and kids are not like when I was younger. Not saying better or worse but boy technology and social media have changed things massively