Well said

I don't think anyone ITT - myself very much included - has cast doubt at the concept that biological males have a physical advantage. This isn't some "reality" that people aren't accepting, it is just completely ****ing obvious. Which makes it pretty weird that some people are feeling the need to repeat over and over and over again how males are stronger than females. We get it.

I have never said hormone therapy "levels the playing field". Firstly, in prior iterations of the trans thread, I've acknowledged that while hormone therapy generally reduces athletic potential, the exact degree if still somewhat unknown and unlikely to be sufficient to "level the playing field" completely, particularly when started late. Secondly, I've not typically advocated for inclusion at elite levels so this fact is largely irrelevant for my purpose. Thirdly, I don't think sports right now is a level playing field in the sense of the players being equal; indeed, it is very far from that, so I would never use that framing.

So I don't believe your claim that I have said this.

I've seen a number of versions of this, but I find it pretty silly. I don't think anything in the trans movement is suggesting gender roles are fixed. A fluid notion of gender isn't at all in tension with trans people.

Not often that I'm completely on the same page as Victor, but I am here.

Well, not completely I guess, as I see possibly some room for restrictions at the grade 11/12 level, because that's where it gets pretty serious, hunt for scholarships, etc., and I don't know that a lot of kids' mental health depends on making the school team by that age. BUT I might be wrong on that latter point, and I'm starting to question if the way highly competitive sports and school come together at that level is a good thing anyway. I'm partway through a pretty interesting Malcolm Gladwell episode on the topic of women in sports:



Thought there were some interesting ideas about, among other things, sports scholarships and whether they should even exist.

So I guess I'm very much on the fence with older HS sports, and as I've said before, think that's best worked out by the experts, athletes, etc.

Sports scholarships are terrible and have always been ridiculous. There is no good reason for sports to be linked with universities. The most popular college sports are just businesses.

When I was in college, the guys on football or basketball scholarships barely even went to class. It's even clearer now that 'student' athletes can make money.

For those sports that don't make money for anyone, it's still wrong for people with greater athletic abilities to get the opportunity to go to college over those who are more likely to do well in their classes and improve their lives that way but can't afford the tuition.

Pretty much all of them, right? Off the top of my head golf, tennis, hockey, any track and field event, softball, badminton, swimming, table tennis….

The only exception I can think of would be pure strength sports like weightlifting or sports where women don’t compete like baseball.

Probably not tennis. Too many people playing it. Badminton idk. Table tennis the top women would not be beaten easily.

Swimming I'm sure they're losing, same with most track and field events.

Do you realise that if Leah Thomas turned pro she would probably break the world record in every female freestyle event from 100 m to 1500 m?

Turned pro?

It’s funny - tennis is the sport that I’m most knowledgeable about given that I played competitively (and still do at a lesser level). I am very certain that there are not hundreds of high school boys who could beat the world number one (currently Swiatek). In fact if it were ever able to be proved I would bet a lot of money that the current best high school player in the country would lose handily to her.

I don’t realize that but it seems easily proven. So you are saying that Leah’s times are already better than the world record in all of those events?

Goalpost shift. The original post was referring to teenage men. You really think that there aren't hundreds of teenage men (and we're talking worldwide) who couldn't beat the world #1? Aren't there hundreds of teenagers already playing professional tennis?

Scanning the French Open entrants, there seems to be 6 teenagers in the men's draw. Quite a few more 20-22 year-olds. I am confident any of them could beat any woman. Just the difference in service speed would be a killer.

Hockey with around 16 years old boy ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...s-warm-up.html

Pretty sure would be the same in hockey , basketball , and many other.

Im not sure how a swimmer turns pro?

Bottom line Leah Thomas is a cheat. He competed against women and I do not know how he can feel and pride or dignity in trampling on women's rights .

Fair enough - I was using high schoolers as short hand for teenagers, but if you want to include 19 year olds then I don’t believe that really changes the calculus.

Again, seems easily verifiable to understand if there are hundreds of teenagers playing men’s professional tennis or not, right?

That is useful data. It doesn’t seem to me that those six could beat Swiatek, but it’s certainly possible that one of them could. I watched one of their matches and the eye test would tell me that he would lose to Swiatek (especially on clay) but it’s obviously difficult to say. And if these are the six best teenage men in the world, I think it’s very doubtful to think that hundreds could easily beat the women’s #1

The eye test will fool you. The level of competition matters a great deal on someone's perceived skill. But, as you say, until there's actually some matches we'll never know. But in sports where outcomes are measured in time, distance, or weight, who has the advantage is clear.

Fwiw often in sport best in the world changes yearly .
I don’t think it would make it right to beat top 5 or 10 in the world anyway .

Your transphobia is getting worse. At least before you wouldn't deliberately misgender people.

Lol, wtf is this? I know you like talking about how big the gap between males and females is over and over and over again, but there is no need to make **** up. Lia Thomas (not "Leah") is already a D1 NCAA champion, wtf does "turning pro" even mean and why do you presume she can beat every record if she hasn't already?

OMG. Unreal.

I don't recognize preferred pronouns of people that don't respect women's rights. Otherwise I am onboard for preferred pronouns .

It's not transphobia I'm not scared of the Trans community .

Sickening. Choosing to deliberately misgender someone when they don't fit your political sense of what is acceptable is pretty gross.

Incredible that you manage to screw up both "transphobic" and weirdly capitalize the second "Trans" in the same sentence. Surely it can't be this difficult to get through one sentence about trans people without making glaring grammatical mistakes? Of course on the substance this is ridiculous, the accepted definition of transphobia is not about literal fear just as one can be homophobic without literally fearing gay people. You get zero brownie points for passing this lowest of bars.