lol at whomever said put microbob on ignore.
If you have issue with the length of his posts- then have the same issue with me.
Whatever point you want to take with any of bob's posts they have certainly helped promote the general discussion by encouraging other well thought out replies.

I watched these tables for around 90 minutes the other night where there were at least 6-8 accounts from the watch lists playing with most tables having at least two but not more than three.

Too many things are unexplainable at this point to know whether it's just a collective strategy being followed or something more nefarious is happening.
Mostly because it's rather bizarre and at this point unexplained I wouldn't put my money into play on tables where i knew more than one of these players were sitting at this point.
But it's the same reason I wouldn't sit on any table where I saw 3 people all listed from the same US city who always sat together. The chances something hinky is going on just skyrockets in situations like that.

A couple things were very clear from even that relatively short time watching 4-5 tables.

1) they disconnect often. very true. this has to be extremely frustrating for the other regulars in the game. I'm not sure what if anything stars can or should do about it. However...
2) I didn't see much evidence that they always disconnect together.
I saw plenty of individual disconnects. Now this could mean - well hell it could mean a lot of things. But they were nearly all back immediately before the next hand from what I saw when they disconnected during a hand that they had a bet or two into.
I saw several disconnects happen on 5th before they had to start putting big bets into pots. I saw at least three happen this way where they had a single pair that improved to win or held up to win that possibly weren't winning earlier in the hand.

these potentially advantageous disconnects I would think to be the easiest to spot evidence of all the things talked about and I think people should be looking for those where they can identify the cards of both players.

Obviously I could not ascertain the grips they had when they disconnected and lost, nor could I come up with precise grips for opponents as an observer.
It's certainly conceivable they have a mix of real and forced disconnects.

Last- it's just damn bizarre the feel you get of these accounts being some sort of collective. There's a feel to it that one cannot put a finger on immediately.
Twice I saw one account leave and another watch listed account immediately replace it on a table that hadn't been full to that point. Meaning no waiting list but an immediate replacement.
That may have been the weirdest thing I saw during the entire time.
Again the sample size of that is tiny and meaningless by itself- but it's another thing people could look for in their HHs.

I had the free time and this thread has genuinely interested me, but can't get caught at this point trying to put more man hours into it beyond keeping up with the thread and any other thoughts that pop into my head.

Hand histories from the people who have been on table when some of these things happen are necessary to move any further on it I think.

Best of luck.

ape - very interesting observations.
Good that you saw that they actually do NOT disconnect together.
That's the type of thing we need to know about one way or another. Right now it's a bit more anecdotal from different observers and some of the stuff that some of the stud players in this thread are saying seem to flat-out contradict each other. So we get it that there's a certain feel that "something just ain't right in China" if you'll pardon a weirdly appropriate phrase...but I think it's time to look more closely into it.

The types of hands where they might be raising with each other or just might look weird...or disconnecting advantageously...are all things we need to see.

Not looking for concrete proof or anything. But if there are any hands that you think are examples of the general tone of things just not "feeling right" then lets see 'em.
There are all these stud players in this thread who are concerned about these guys and have been watching them. It shouldn't be hard to track down SOME of the hands that are examples of some of the suspicious stuff even if it isn't conclusive.

But nobody has come forward with ANYTHING which I find to be really odd.

I just tried to check hand 14597393616 and it was part of a $20 NLHE Tournament.

the hand# is14597393619...............sorry 4 the error

i just recieved that hh and after reviewing the hand i see that it did catch the straight on 6th st . It all went down so fast ,i thought the 9 it caught on the river gave it the gut shot .my mistake,my bad,BUT that does"nt change anything .I still feel that the C.P.M. (chinese poker mafia) is cheating in more ways than one.they are constantly changing,namers,locations,tables and partners. i cant put my finger on exactly what or how they're doing it,but rest assured they're doing something.my only hope is that they get caught before they get their grubby little paws on anyone else's money. Thank You for listening and now i'm off 2 battle the bots......GOOD LUCK TO ME. : )

Well, since the mods have not edited posts(to remove my name/userid) yet and have not deleted this account, and more importantly this situation is becoming more and more ridiculous as the days progress and new users register from the same location everyday and follow the same patterns as the others, I will keep posting some stuff I think might be useful.

So, I ran a small experiment today to prove, what I said earlier, that 2 of the users on the list frequently join a table to play against another opponent but they break the game immediately when their opponent leaves the table.

I sat down on 2 tables and waited for one of the Changles to join my table. I asked politely anyone who sat at my tables to leave because I was waiting for somebody. It didn't take long before poiuytrewq32 joined me at one table and zxcvbnm58 joined me at the other. I played a few hands with them and won a few in a row on both tables (lost $40 in the process, I don't like playing HU), when yimei520 joined both the tables I was sitting with the others.

This is what happened at the first table:

PokerStars Game #14623028528: 7 Card Stud Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/01/17 - 13:45:31 (ET)
Table 'Verbiest II' 8-max
Seat 5: Taoj ($18.55 in chips)
Seat 6: zxcvbnm58 ($56.55 in chips)
TaoJ: posts the ante $0.10
zxcvbnm58: posts the ante $0.10
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to Taoj [2c 2s Kc]
Dealt to zxcvbnm58 [Ts]
zxcvbnm58: brings in for $0.50
Taoj: raises $0.50 to $1
yimei520 joins the table at seat #3
zxcvbnm58: folds
TaoJ collected $1.20 from pot
TaoJ: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.20 | Rake $0
Seat 5: TaoJ collected ($1.20)
Seat 6: zxcvbnm58 folded on the 3rd Street

PokerStars Game #14623034132: 7 Card Stud Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/01/17 - 13:45:46 (ET)
Table 'Verbiest II' 8-max
Seat 3: yimei520 ($40 in chips)
Seat 6: zxcvbnm58 ($55.95 in chips)
yimei520: posts the ante $0.10
TaoJ: is sitting out
zxcvbnm58: posts the ante $0.10
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to yimei520 [3h]
Dealt to zxcvbnm58 [9s]
yimei520: brings in for $0.50
zxcvbnm58: folds
yimei520 collected $0.20 from pot
zxcvbnm58 is sitting out
yimei520: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.20 | Rake $0
Seat 3: yimei520 collected ($0.20)
Seat 6: zxcvbnm58 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)

When zxcvbnm58 sat out, I wrote in the chat box, "busted idiots" and I left the table. Both of them left right after me.

Here is the second table:

PokerStars Game #14623036685: 7 Card Stud Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/01/17 - 13:45:53 (ET)
Table 'Schurer II' 8-max
Seat 4: TaoJ ($56.70 in chips)
Seat 7: poiuytrewq32 ($56.65 in chips)
TaoJ: posts the ante $0.10
poiuytrewq32: posts the ante $0.10
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to TaoJ [9c 7s Kh]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [2s]
poiuytrewq32: brings in for $0.50
TaoJ: raises $0.50 to $1
poiuytrewq32: calls $0.50
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to TaoJ [9c 7s Kh] [Jc]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [2s] [Tc]
TaoJ: bets $1
poiuytrewq32: calls $1
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to TaoJ [9c 7s Kh Jc] [Ad]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [2s Tc] [As]
TaoJ: bets $2
poiuytrewq32: folds
TaoJ collected $4.20 from pot
TaoJ is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.20 | Rake $0
Seat 4: TaoJ collected ($4.20)
Seat 7: poiuytrewq32 folded on the 5th Street

PokerStars Game #14623061540: 7 Card Stud Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/01/17 - 13:47:00 (ET)
Table 'Schurer II' 8-max
Seat 2: yimei520 ($40 in chips)
Seat 7: poiuytrewq32 ($54.55 in chips)
yimei520: posts the ante $0.10
poiuytrewq32: posts the ante $0.10
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to yimei520 [9h]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [9d]
poiuytrewq32: brings in for $0.50
yimei520: folds
poiuytrewq32 collected $0.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.20 | Rake $0
Seat 2: yimei520 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 7: poiuytrewq32 collected ($0.20)

I can't find the part where yimei520 sits down at this table but it was sometime during or just before the first hand. To my surprise they played a few hands between them for 5 minutes, maybe they figured since I sat out at both tables immediately that I was looking for them to do the same. However, when I left the table they did break this game immediately as well:

PokerStars Game #14623142756: 7 Card Stud Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/01/17 - 13:50:37 (ET)
Table 'Schurer II' 8-max
Seat 2: yimei520 ($51.95 in chips)[/b]
Seat 7: poiuytrewq32 ($41.85 in chips)
yimei520: posts the ante $0.10
poiuytrewq32: posts the ante $0.10
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to yimei520 [7d]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [2d]
poiuytrewq32: brings in for $0.50
yimei520: raises $0.50 to $1
poiuytrewq32: raises $1 to $2
yimei520: raises $1 to $3
poiuytrewq32: calls $1
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to yimei520 [7d] [6h]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [2d] [Js]
poiuytrewq32: checks
yimei520: bets $1
poiuytrewq32: calls $1
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to yimei520 [7d 6h] [3h]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [2d Js] [8d]
poiuytrewq32: checks
yimei520: bets $2
poiuytrewq32: calls $2
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to yimei520 [7d 6h 3h] [Jd]
Dealt to poiuytrewq32 [2d Js 8d] [Qh]
poiuytrewq32: checks
yimei520: bets $2
TaoJ leaves the table
poiuytrewq32: calls $2
*** RIVER ***
poiuytrewq32: checks
yimei520: bets $2
poiuytrewq32: folds
yimei520 collected $15.45 from pot
yimei520: doesn't show hand
poiuytrewq32 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $16.20 | Rake $0.75
Seat 2: yimei520 collected ($15.45)
Seat 7: poiuytrewq32 folded on the River

Nothing fancy here, just a proof to a small theory I had.

QFT. Thank you MB.

Um, true, those remarks are useless imo and there is no need to post such things.

assimilation - please post some of the hands you think might be suspicious in that regard if you can.

Thank you for the list. Before posting it there were a few players I haven't seen on ps before but then I saw one of the names "luckymonkey9(elmhurst) and I am postive that his city is not elmhurst anymore. I am dissapointed I did not note down what his new city displayed is.



ape - thank you for taking time in obseriving some of the tables. Noone expects you to do that in the future of course, and besides that all you contributions here regardless of whether you observe their play or not are greatly considered.

I think I said in my first post that they do disconnect together, but I was refering to the initial 4 usernames I emailed stars about back in January last year. I think. I don't remember if anyone else said something about that.

Further: I observed Player pxc666 today for about half an hour. I did not save that hand but:

at 10:24 ET today:

user: pxc666

the user disconnects for hand #14619674159(table dabih IV(fast)) after posting the ante.
while at the same time(exactly)
the user is involved in hand #14619640812(table dido), where apparently he has a good hand even though he folds on 6th street.


I ll try and get in touch with some players and get some of those hands. No worries, they do exist. I guess others (just like me) are waiting for pokerstars' new investigation to finish and get the results of that before they take this further?

And you just observed for 90 minutes. Imagine what we feel when this thing happens for 6 months straight.


StephenW, you did come back here to say something about a hand but you have avoided to reply to the above. I'd appreciate it if you do next time you are back in this thread.
Thank you.

i didn't see any changles at .50/1.00 tables yesterday, so i sat down and promptly donked off 25bb's running into rolled sets twice and having the under full for regissttrar's financial benefit. i'm less than 100 vpp's from silver, so i'll just play,
.5/1 and try not to whine as it takes 8bb Pots at .5/1 to get a vpp as opposed to a 5bb pot at 1/2.

good work, folks, drive on

oh yeah,

These 2 accounts I saw for the first time yesterday.

boybaby168(fuzhou), citibank336(fujian).

Brand new apparently.

And:

I did find a way to kick one of them off the table when 2 of the users on the list sit together.

To those interested;

Mention their name a few times in the chatbox. Type changle, then the city they have displayed and repeat.

I use the phrase: I killlllll uuuuuu as well...(derived from: youtube; ahmed the dead terrorist)...you will love this video btw.


So it goes a bit like this:

Hopefi22
changle
lousejin=changle...i know
i killlllll uuuuuuu

zxcvbnm58
changle
i killllllllll uuuuuuu 2

and repeat

(Yes I know, people have told me to start taking my pills allready but that is the only way to kick one of them off....and usually one of them does, if not both, go away....even though they are becoming more and more stubborn lately). Due to that I play half the hands I should be playing now, but what can I do?!Its better than being cheated I think.

Oh, and:

Hopefi22's city displayed is "lousejin". You might want to google that and see where it leads. Funny as hell, that word doesn't even exist, but still try that on google. I did laugh the first time around.

taotao- that chat can be taken as a direct threat against them...not just talk about trying to take all their chips but actually 'kill'.
Probably not appropriate at the tables and I don't recommend it as I don't think Stars would recommend you doing that either.

Also worth noting that your experience with them leaving the table after you did that may have just been coincidence. You seem to indicate that they tend to jump on and off the tables kind of frequently anyway. So perhaps you types that just as they were going to be leaving the table regardless.

Apefish, I think your post is excellent. You seem to have captured the essence of the situation in your short stint observing the stud rooms. I’ll admit, the situation as a whole is a bit bizarre and has an almost Kafkaesque feel …

Tao, I did the exact same experiment yesterday and had a very similar result, although with different handles of the Changle Gang. Basically, they try to double team you. If you sit out then they will typically play one or two hands against each other and then go away. By the way, the list of Changle members currently circulating may not be entirely accurate. There are other accounts that may be connected and there may be some accounts mentioned which are entirely innocent. I’m sure that none of us want anyone to be falsely accused but there are so many different accounts involved in this that a mistake or two is actually likely.

I agree with some of you who have mentioned the importance to keep this thread focused on allegations of cheating and potential proofs thereof. Although a somewhat fascinating topic (that could help to shed light on the motives) – the “development of different game strategies by different cultures” is not the main topic here.

Regarding disconnecting together and separately: there are some accounts that I have noticed disconnecting simultaneously and others that seem at least partially independent of each other (from an Internet connection standpoint). What this tells me is that the whole Changle Gang is not one person or one single group of people in the same room with the same Internet connection. It appears that there are a few different “cells” which collectively encompass a long list of different accounts. There is no reason why certain accounts could not play from the same IP address one day and then from a different ones on another day. Most likely the whole operation is overseen by a single individual or a small group of individuals who then configures or schedules the various accounts to play at their various physical sites.

I have not taken the effort to record when and which players disconnect simultaneously and which don’t. I don’t have the time or the energy for this. This is something which Pokerstars can most easily determine from the IP addresses of the related accounts at various times during each accounts play history. I suspect graphing the connections out in some type of flowchart form would be very productive.


[B]HHs:

The following two hands are examples of “Wow, I’ve got a huge hand but this guy is telling me loud and clear that he has it beat (time to disconnect).”

I have removed the HH #, the exact time of the HH and done “find and replace” to eliminate my handle and replace it with “me.” I have done this to protect my identity and I hope this is not perceived as compromising the accuracy of these HHs. These two hands happened within a period of 48 hours by the same perpetrator, Woetfh77. I was the victim of one and simply the observer in another.

In both cases, raises by the victim into Woetfh77’s very scary stud boards is a clear demonstration of holding trips or a fullhouse. In utterly mind-boggling fashion, the villain happens to catch one of a few winning river cards in both of these hands but please do not let that fact confuse you. Anyone who plays stud can see that these are very, very suspicious disconnects. The actual results of both these hands may have a more esoteric nature. Note in the second example that I actually announced in the chat window that Woetfh77 was about to all-in cheat before the connection actually timed out, thus declaring him all-in.

PokerStars Game # example 1: 7 Card Stud Limit ($10/$20) - 2008/01/04
Table 'Memoria II' 8-max
Seat 1: quan1212 ($184 in chips)
Seat 2: Bostonwonwon ($611 in chips)
Seat 4: Trams57 ($323 in chips)
Seat 5: me ($152 in chips)
Seat 6: woetfh77 ($400 in chips)
Seat 7: abcddc ($505 in chips)
Seat 8: B Buddy ($250 in chips)
quan1212: posts the ante $1
Bostonwonwon: posts the ante $1
Trams57: posts the ante $1
Trams57 said, "yeah"
me: posts the ante $1
woetfh77: posts the ante $1
abcddc: posts the ante $1
B Buddy: posts the ante $1
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to quan1212 [3s]
Dealt to Bostonwonwon [Tc]
Dealt to Trams57 [7h]
Dealt to me [2s 2h 8d]
Dealt to woetfh77 [As]
Dealt to abcddc [8c]
Dealt to B Buddy [Ac]
quan1212: brings in for $3
Bostonwonwon: raises $7 to $10
Trams57: folds
me: calls $10
kittybear773 joins the table at seat #3
woetfh77: raises $10 to $20
abcddc: folds
B Buddy: folds
quan1212: folds
Bostonwonwon: calls $10
kittybear773 is sitting out
me: calls $10
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to Bostonwonwon [Tc] [4d]
Dealt to me [2s 2h 8d] [Jd]
Dealt to woetfh77 [As] [7c]
woetfh77: bets $10
Bostonwonwon: raises $10 to $20
me: folds
woetfh77: raises $10 to $30
Bostonwonwon: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
woetfh77: calls $10
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to Bostonwonwon [Tc 4d] [Qc]
Dealt to woetfh77 [As 7c] [Kh]
Trams57 said, "do you?"
woetfh77: checks
Bostonwonwon: bets $20
woetfh77: calls $20
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to Bostonwonwon [Tc 4d Qc] [3d]
Dealt to woetfh77 [As 7c Kh] [Kc]
woetfh77: bets $20
Bostonwonwon: raises $20 to $40
me said, "time for woetfh to all in chea"
woetfh77 has timed out while being disconnected
woetfh77 is being treated as all-in
*** RIVER ***
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Bostonwonwon: shows [4h 4c Tc 4d Qc 3d Jh] (three of a kind, Fours)
woetfh77: shows [Ad 3h As 7c Kh Kc Kd] (a full house, Kings full of Aces)
woetfh77 collected $227 from pot
woetfh77 is sitting out
Bostonwonwon is sitting out
woetfh77 is disconnected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $230 | Rake $3
Seat 1: quan1212 folded on the 3rd Street
Seat 2: Bostonwonwon showed [4h 4c Tc 4d Qc 3d Jh] and lost with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 4: Trams57 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 5: me folded on the 4th Street
Seat 6: woetfh77 showed [Ad 3h As 7c Kh Kc Kd] and won ($227) with a full house,
Kings full of Aces
Seat 7: abcddc folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 8: B Buddy folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)


PokerStars Game # example two: 7 Card Stud Limit ($10/$20) - 2008/01/02
Table 'Alcyone III' 8-max
Seat 1: TWOSLOT ($508 in chips)
Seat 2: woetfh77 ($272 in chips)
Seat 4: auntem ($670 in chips)
Seat 5: pookiepoker1 ($444 in chips)
Seat 7: me ($234 in chips)
Seat 8: newhouse ($306 in chips)
TWOSLOT: posts the ante $1
woetfh77: posts the ante $1
auntem: posts the ante $1
pookiepoker1: posts the ante $1
me: posts the ante $1
newhouse: posts the ante $1
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to TWOSLOT [8s]
Dealt to woetfh77 [9c]
Dealt to auntem [4s]
Dealt to pookiepoker1 [4h]
Dealt to me [6s Kc Qs]
Dealt to newhouse [9d]
pookiepoker1: brings in for $3
me: calls $3
newhouse: folds
TWOSLOT: calls $3
woetfh77: calls $3
auntem: calls $3
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to TWOSLOT [8s] [5h]
Dealt to woetfh77 [9c] [Ah]
Dealt to auntem [4s] [8c]
Dealt to pookiepoker1 [4h] [Jc]
Dealt to me [6s Kc Qs] [Ks]
woetfh77: bets $10
auntem: folds
pookiepoker1: calls $10
me: calls $10
TWOSLOT: folds
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to woetfh77 [9c Ah] [9s]
Dealt to pookiepoker1 [4h Jc] [Qh]
Dealt to me [6s Kc Qs Ks] [Kh]
TWOSLOT is sitting out
me: bets $20
woetfh77: calls $20
pookiepoker1: folds
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to woetfh77 [9c Ah 9s] [7c]
Dealt to me [6s Kc Qs Ks Kh] [6d]
me: bets $20
woetfh77: raises $20 to $40
me: raises $20 to $60
woetfh77 has timed out while being disconnected
woetfh77 is being treated as all-in
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to me [6s Kc Qs Ks Kh 6d] [Js]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
me: shows [6s Kc Qs Ks Kh 6d Js] (a full house, Kings full of Sixes)
woetfh77: shows [As Qc 9c Ah 9s 7c Ac] (a full house, Aces full of Nines)
woetfh77 collected $168 from pot
woetfh77 is sitting out
woetfh77 is disconnected
don5991 joins the table at seat #3
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $171 | Rake $3
Seat 1: TWOSLOT folded on the 4th Street
Seat 2: woetfh77 showed [As Qc 9c Ah 9s 7c Ac] and won ($168) with a full house,
Aces full of Nines
Seat 4: auntem folded on the 4th Street
Seat 5: pookiepoker1 folded on the 5th Street
Seat 7: me showed [6s Kc Qs Ks Kh 6d Js] and lost with a full house, Kings
full of Sixes
Seat 8: newhouse folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)


This hand is an example of “What a draw but it looks like I’m definitely going to need to get there (time to disconnect).”

I am waiting on Stars to send me this full hand history along with about 4 others that I have requested since they could not be found using the menu interface (they must be too old and I only saved the HH #s and, in some cases the summaries, but not the full HHs).

>PokerStars Game #example 3: 7 Card Stud Limit ($3/$6) - 2007/04/20 -
>*** SHOW DOWN ***
>me: shows [Ts Th 3d Ad Tc 9s 6h] (three of a kind, Tens)
>asdfghjkll: mucks hand
>asdfghjkll is sitting out
>asdfghjkll has returned
>me collected $14.50 from pot
>*** SUMMARY ***
>Total pot $14.50 | Rake $0
>Seat 1: WormyAces folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
>Seat 2: windowman folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
>Seat 3: poyzxeir folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
>Seat 5: asdfghjkll mucked [5d 7s 6s 4c 9d 5c 2c]
>Seat 7: luckymonkey9 folded on the 3rd Street
>Seat 8: me showed [Ts Th 3d Ad Tc 9s 6h] and won ($14.50) with
>three of a kind, Tens


This hand is an example of “Rolled Kings, neat! Oh darn, this pot isn’t going to get big so let’s buy ourselves a whole bunch of respectability. Hey, it’s only 1-2 Limit (time to disconnect).”

Pokerstars sent this to me as absolving data when I sent them the two HHs shown above from 10/20 Stud.

PokerStars Game #14104619490: 7 Card Stud Limit ($1/$2) - 2007/12/26 -
04:11:18 (ET)
Table 'Havnia III' 8-max

Seat 1: NYplayerAZ ($45.90 in chips)
Seat 2: cayenne10 ($30.35 in chips)
Seat 3: camikater ($105.50 in chips)
Seat 5: aquaman29 ($85.35 in chips)
Seat 6: woetfh77 ($56.15 in chips)
Seat 7: swinghard41 ($18.95 in chips)
Seat 8: Two Tight ($39.80 in chips)
NYplayerAZ: posts the ante $0.10
cayenne10: posts the ante $0.10
camikater: posts the ante $0.10
aquaman29: posts the ante $0.10
woetfh77: posts the ante $0.10
swinghard41: posts the ante $0.10
Two Tight: posts the ante $0.10

*** 3rd STREET ***

Dealt to NYplayerAZ [Kh]
Dealt to cayenne10 [8d]
Dealt to camikater [9s]
Dealt to aquaman29 [2c]
Dealt to woetfh77 [Ks Kc Kd]
Dealt to swinghard41 [Qd]
Dealt to Two Tight [2d]
aquaman29: brings in for $0.50
woetfh77: calls $0.50
swinghard41: raises $0.50 to $1
Two Tight: folds
NYplayerAZ: calls $1
cayenne10: folds
camikater: calls $1
aquaman29: calls $0.50
woetfh77: raises $1 to $2
swinghard41: calls $1
NYplayerAZ: calls $1
camikater: calls $1
aquaman29: calls $1

*** 4th STREET ***

Dealt to NYplayerAZ [Kh] [9d]
Dealt to camikater [9s] [4s]
Dealt to aquaman29 [2c] [5c]
Dealt to woetfh77 [Ks Kc Kd] [Jh]
Dealt to swinghard41 [Qd] [7c]
woetfh77: bets $1
ERXOMAI joins the table at seat #4
swinghard41: calls $1
NYplayerAZ: calls $1
camikater: calls $1
aquaman29: calls $1

*** 5th STREET ***

Dealt to NYplayerAZ [Kh 9d] [Qc]
Dealt to camikater [9s 4s] [Tc]
Dealt to aquaman29 [2c 5c] [Td]
Dealt to woetfh77 [Ks Kc Kd Jh] [6d]
Dealt to swinghard41 [Qd 7c] [3s]
NYplayerAZ: checks
camikater: checks
aquaman29: checks

woetfh77 has timed out while being disconnected
woetfh77 is being treated as all-in

swinghard41: checks

*** 6th STREET ***

Dealt to NYplayerAZ [Kh 9d Qc] [8c]
Dealt to camikater [9s 4s Tc] [3c]
Dealt to aquaman29 [2c 5c Td] [9h]
Dealt to woetfh77 [Ks Kc Kd Jh 6d] [6c]
Dealt to swinghard41 [Qd 7c 3s] [Ac]
swinghard41: checks
NYplayerAZ: bets $2
camikater: calls $2
aquaman29: folds
swinghard41: calls $2

*** RIVER ***

Dealt to woetfh77 [Ks Kc Kd Jh 6d 6c] [Th]
swinghard41: bets $2
NYplayerAZ: calls $2
camikater: folds

*** SHOW DOWN ***

swinghard41: shows [7h Jc Qd 7c 3s Ac Qh] (two pair, Queens and Sevens)
NYplayerAZ: mucks hand
swinghard41 collected $9.75 from side pot
woetfh77: shows [Ks Kc Kd Jh 6d 6c Th] (a full house, Kings full of Sixes)
woetfh77 collected $14.95 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $25.70 Main pot $14.95. Side pot $9.75. | Rake $1
Seat 1: NYplayerAZ mucked [9c 8h Kh 9d Qc 8c Ah]
Seat 2: cayenne10 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 3: camikater folded on the River
Seat 5: aquaman29 folded on the 6th Street
Seat 6: woetfh77 showed [Ks Kc Kd Jh 6d 6c Th] and won ($14.95) with a
full house, Kings full of Sixes
Seat 7: swinghard41 showed [7h Jc Qd 7c 3s Ac Qh] and won ($9.75) with two
pair, Queens and Sevens
Seat 8: Two Tight folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)

assim - I have no problems with you concealing the HH# nor your identity in this thread. Thanks for sharing the hands.

As long as you let Stars know what the HH# is, which you said you are going to do, then I think that's all that's important right now.

I don't have time to look at the HH's yet and I'm such a stud noob that I really shouldn't be the one making determinations on how unusual the play or disconnects in those hands are. But I hope others smarter than me will look at them and share their thoughts. I think that posting such stuff here can only help your cause.


taotao - neglected to thank you for your support of my presence in this thread. I'm critical of some of the observations being made but I think I'm fair, albeit sometimes long-winded.
As I said before, I definitely think there is enough here to at least not dismiss it entirely as being totally imaginary. Thankfully, it appears Stars agrees as they say they are looking into these guys yet again to try to find something.

Great, thank you assimilation for posting those hands. Those (first 2 especially) hands are most definitely cases of selective disconnect abuse. Lol at the hand where you type in the chat “time for.....”. Spot on mate.



MB - the bolded part above is exactly what I mean by the phrase I use. I feel it is about the same as someone calling me a moron on the table, where, while in a real life situation I would find offensive, I know on a poker table he/she is referring to my play hence it’s not that offensive I guess.
If pokerstars finds that, to be the case of an actual thread referred to the person in question, they should be warning me I presume, in which case I ll be finding another phrase to use as a replacement.


No MB. It is absolutely not a coincidence. They know I am referring to them, I have been doing it for the last couple of days and results are unequivocal. It has been the case in the past as well, where, when 2 players on the table started talking about one of the changle users, and one of them happened to be on the table, the player in question used to sit out immediately, for reasons I can not be certain, but probably felt uncomfortable of being in a discussion for one reason or another. Furthermore, when I start typing in the chat-box and when 1 or both of them leave they don’t tend to come back at the table afterwards.


Of course assimilation, I did say when I posted those usernames, apologies to the ones that feel incriminated by the list but are actually not guilty of any wrongdoing whatsoever. I just gave out what I and others felt might be connected to each other. That said, the first 25 users I gave out, and most likely the 8 followed by those, I am absolutely positive that hail from changle, as I saw all of them register as changle at first but some later changed their city to something else. And there should definitely be more which we have not noticed yet or in the past.


It could be the case that, they use multiple Internet connections/IPaddresses from the same room. I know for a fact that this is easily doable.


YW MB, you should have known yourself that your presence here is of benefit to all of us. I expect people to be critical about some of the things we say, or else we wouldn’t be having a discussion, discounting some of the stuff that might be irrelevant, hence focusing on the more important aspects of this situation. I hate it though when people come out criticising and questioning some of the ideas we produce and fail to acknowledge all the credible facts many of us have given out in this thread. Keep up the critique and the support though as well.

omg, "reasonableme" is also from fuzhou?????

I don't believe I have not noticed that before.

Plays highest limts, usually HU.



update: luckymonkey9, given as elmhurst(city) in another post is now displayed as "corona"



and some of you might want to observe table Gorgo IV 2/4: at least 3 of the users are involved together right now. zxcvbnm58, woetfh77, moreyone918.

just 2 of them now

lol at the following email I just received from pokerstars and the reply:

Hello xxxxxxx,

We have received a report that the city listed in your account is not a
valid location.

When you made your first real money purchase, the following was
clearly stated: "Your name and address should appear EXACTLY the same
way as in your financial institution".

Your city has been changed back from 'Changle Inquisidor' to 'xxx'. We
kindly request that you keep your city matching your actual location.
Further changes to your city name that are not in accordance with the above
rule may leave us little choice but to restrict your ability to make changes
to the city field.

Thank you in advance for your co-operation. Please contact us if you
have any questions.

Regards,


MarkW
PokerStars Support Team


Hello Mark,

Thank you for your email.

Apologies, but I did not recall the following when I changed my city.

"Your name and address should appear EXACTLY the same
way as in your financial institution".

One of the reasons I changed my city was for privacy/security issues. The other reasons are not so important at this point.

Is it possible I could change my city to just the letter x for now, or probably have nothing displayed next to my screename?
I hope you understand why I don't want my city displayed in the software.


Furthermore, I have noticed many other players who do not use their actual city as the one displayed on the pokestars site and others who have been changing their city from the one they have registered with to something fictional. As I understand this is not permitted by Pokerstars.

A couple of examples would be:

hopefi22(lousejin)
hetokf22(kieng)
waoto22(condecr)

I can come up with many more but I guess you have the resources to do a better job than me, since you have found so quickly that I changed my city in a period of just 3 days.

Thank you again

Regards,
xxxxxx

My hunch is that if they catch you or if someone complains they will not be giving you a warning. They will simply ban your chat for a period of time...probably a month or so.
They don't take kindly to this kind of stuff and I don't believe they give out 'warnings' without doing anything else.
Threatening to kill somebody at your table is not what Stars wants in their chat. It's incredibly inappropriate regardless how certain you feel you are about their cheating.


I think that your overall tone might be more effective if you were less in the "I'm going to cause trouble until you guys fix this" and more of a "Lets work together to see what exactly is happening here because this just doesn't feel right to me."

You really seem to be taking pride in bending/breaking the rules here and I just don't think this is the right way to be going about this no matter how much it concerns/upsets you that nothing has happened to these guys yet.

Been away, missed this.

When I started this thread, I had some concerns about this post and where to put it.

As I have said all along, I have not concluded IMHO that the Changle group colludes, but that I found several things disconcerting.

I put this in the Stud forum, but feared it would die quickly, as the traffic there is light. I didn't know if it was appropriate to put it in the Zoo.

I thought it had potential for a decent thread, and I wanted to learn what others thought about the situation.

So I contacted a regular poster, one who's opinion I respected, and asked him to please look at the post and offer his view. That of course was MicroBob.

He recommended I post it here in the Zoo, then kindly 'started the debate' by posting next.

I thought that his joining in would give the thread a bit of legitimacy, as the Zoo can be a rough ride at times. (Not that I mind needing a tough skin, I enjoy most of the give and take, but I didn't want to get distracted with personalities in the beginning).

I find his opinions well thought out, and usually quite accurate, and not at all along the lines of those who post, "Yeah, the Changle groups cheat 'cause all Asians cheat---it's in their culture." WTF?????

Anyone check the white mans behavior throughout history?

I digress though, and my point is that I still have to give a sardonic smile when the people who give well thought out answers are jumped on because, well, their answers are well thought out.

Bob, I guess you need to give out more responses along the lines of 'you suck dude'.

Thanks again for help started this thread.

7

Yeah, that was supposedly going to be part of my New Year's resolution.
I feel like I'm letting down Alobar and Bobo and kyleb, etc etc who were so looking forward to the EvilMicroBob!!!

Please note, however, that I did begin that response by saying "ummmm, bite me??" which I think is a step in the right direction.



No klidding. I'm really disapponited in some of the incredibly silly stuff that has been included in the discussion. There's enough important stuff to be looked at and discussed that we really shouldn't have to be practically looking for more things like racist angles, etc.

TaoTaoTao,

To find someone's city, merely initiate a fund transfer with them for $.01 (to be safe). It will ask you to verify the transfer. When it does it will display the player's name and the city that is currently listed for them. Simply click CANCEL so that no funds are actually transferred.

Corona was a city they used to use on a few of their accounts. There is also an account named "corona" that was used as far back as 3 or 4 years ago. You get one guess what Corona's listed city was/is ...

I think everyone is wasting their time looking for evidence of collusion. That does not appear to be their angle.

They are in extreme violation of the multiple account rules. And as someone noted the fact that every single one of these accounts (of which there may be as many as 50) share the exact same M.O. playing 0 tours, 0 of their earned VIP freerolls, 0 sngs, and 0 other games other than the occasional sitting in stud h/l (which my be accidental) should lend strength to this charge.

There also appears to be two camps. Perhaps there were defectors from the original gang. You will sometimes see a headup battle between camp members. With lots of ratholing (if that still works on stars) and seat changes just to annoy the other player.

I think you can also add winprince and win<something else> to your list.

Again. Going through hand histories with this group is a wild goose chase.

the shape

If he has his chat back, the player orcslayer can tell you alot about this group and list alot of the older accounts for you.

Simply ask him about "The Chen Gang" which is how they were referred to for 2 or 3 years (their use of the city name Changle is a relatively 'recent' development).

In particular, I'm sure he will mention four accounts that were used by one player. Semi-english conversations picked up right where they left off with this user any time he made a new account:

fada = faat = faichen128 = pangpang = <whatever accounts he uses in 2008>

This all goes back to at least 2001.

the shape

But I am not threatening to kill anyone away from the tables. Anyway, really irrelevant, but I just send them an email to verify whether its inappropriate or not.


Bob, I have been working with them for over a year now to try to get to the bottom of this. When I started sending them the new set of emails, they would not even look for the new users I was mumbling about (registering from changle) and they just looked at the ones I mentioned to them like 10 months prior to my new set of emails. Then they stopped replying to me and then they even said to me that there are no hands to review regarding these users' play (you can read that where I posted the set of emails I received from them). I ended up giving them the usernames myself and all the patterns I was noticing. So, please don't tell me I have not worked with them in the past.


I can't play my games anymore. Of course it upsets me. It's more or less like I can not work because of all these users. My patience has ran out I am afraid. And no, I am not taking pride on the things I do in regards, I just started having fun about them, rather than crying for them.

Wouldn't that bring up the city they allready have displayed next to their screename? Or does it bring up the city they initially registered with?

Why would they risk having 2/3 users at the same table if that is not their angle?
That doesn't make sense.


That is the notion.

xxxforever, both from Sydney, Australia, or at least thats what shows up next to their screename. I have seen one of those play some limit holdem and they don't hide themselves from the search function so I doubt they are related here.

hey TAO, how wild is that, they bit ch at you 4 changing your city for security reasons,but they let the the C.P.M do whatever they want. i'm begining to suspect that P.S is protecting them. OR maybe involved with them in some way. Just a thought....but the deeper we get.....the deeper it gets.

Wouldn't that bring up the city they already have displayed next to their screename? Or does it bring up the city they initially registered with?


It brings up the current city. Sorry if I misunderstood.


Why would they risk having 2/3 users at the same table if that is not their angle? That doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure why. Maybe they mutli-account so that they can isolate bad players with them. They fill seats other good players might take so that they have bad players all to themselves. Maybe they are master cheaters and neither myself nor pokerstars has been able to detect it, maybe he was an early riser and liked to pack in the morning. And maybe he didn't have any friends. I'm an educated man, but I'm afraid I can't speak intelligently about the travel habits of William Santiago. What I do know is that he was set to leave the base at 0600.

I'm just giving you the information I am aware of. It's something I moved on from a long time ago, but I thought you might like to have the background and know that this has been going on for a very long time.

xxxforever, both from Sydney, Australia, or at least thats what shows up next to their screename. I have seen one of those play some limit holdem and they don't hide themselves from the search function so I doubt they are related here.


The winprince, winforever accounts just set off the Spidey-sense. They caught my eye a long time after I vacated the stud tables on PS. I only mentioned them as something to keep your eye on.

Spidey-sense also says mypighead is the new fada/faat/faichen128/pangpang.

I detect that you don't find this information helpful and are somewhat annoyed.

This is why we lurk ...

the shape

I understand you're frustrated and I also believe they have not done the greatest job in communicating to you whether they were REALLY looking at them or now.
I also am not saying that you didn't try working with them in the past.
Just saying that a continued more professional attitude and not letting the whole mess get the better of you would probably be a better approach.

Whether trying to mess with them at the table and/or telling them you are going to killllll them is enjoyable for you or something you feel you 'deserve' to get to do because you feel you have lost enough to them and/or they have ruined your games is kind of besides the point I think.
You are encouraging others to do this as well thus trying to make it something of a 'team' effort.
You are even suggesting other people to go there and tell them "I killlll uuuuuu" and trying to get them to leave. Essentially you want to take back what you believe are rightfully your tables and are willing to do whatever you can to achieve that by combining your efforts to try to get rid of them...and if it involved having fun with some players who you believe to be cheaters then sobeit.

This kind of action is inappropriate and not helpful to your cause imo.

I can't tell what the hell these guys are doing that is against the rules although I do believe there could be something there.
I actually CAN tell what you are doing and suggesting that is against the rules.

the shape-

On the contrary. I find the info you are giving very helpful indeed. You are actually opening up a new chapter here that I was apparently unaware of, as I have just started playing stud on ps like a year and a half ago. And even then I was probably playing .1/.25 games so I wouldn't know any of the users, but some, you are mentioning. Your posts are most definetely enlighting. Keep them coming.