there is definitely a market for short stacking these days, twoplustwo was and maybe still is the most anti short stacking forum around and still nearly 40% of the people so far say keep the 20-50bb tables

yeah... the poll at the top shows that while the majority do have a preference, there is quite a significant minority. There is not a cut and dry right move for the site to make here.

My dream of all games being 30 to 60BBs is not to be.

lol dat kid is srsly gettin desperate

sayin dat all 20-50bb games r bots, postin a fake graph to make him look liek a sumbody, and spendin time writin long ******ed posts in useless threads lol like he still got time to put 10k hands

just take ur microsteakz elitist attitude to burger king kid

hey proud shortstacker why not answer his argument properly instead of trying to mock his post.

obviously the 20-50bb games arent bot infested but do you argue that they arent the easiest game to bot?
what does your graph look like? without rakeback.

stars is lagging behind ALOT of rooms with its current BI policy. the fact that they didnt name them Short regular and deep also implies that they were funneling the fish to the 50bb games.

What's your point?

Mmmm...tacos.

i love lamp

When stars was testing the 20bb cap tables, they were way softer even than the 20-50BB tables. Just sayin. There's a lot of factors going into that (maybe people were just trying them out for the novelty, etc.) but I think a lot more people would be interested in this than you think - the protection limit poker offers (i.e., a fish doesn't have to be scared of losing 100BB at once like they always seem to with good hands like K4o on a king high board...) without the restriction (let's face it, people like going "all in", limit feels boring to a lot of casual players, when you can't pick your bet sizes)

I would not be okay with stars just dumping 20-50BB buy in tables. That solution sucks for the simple reason that people do want to play these games. Taking away options for no reason is not a good thing.

Why would they label them Short, Regular, and Deep? The casinos I've played at are usually 50-250BB. Just because 100BB feels "normal" to you, you're all pissy when more games come in?

May as well label them Regular (50-250BB) Short (50-100BB) and Turbo (20-50BB) amirite?

I would be in support/not upset by them removing them in favor of 20BB cap tables. This preserves the basic functionality of the 20-50BB tables but somehow placates fullstackers who think some dude who likes poker enough to get online, download software, deposit money, and navigate governmental red tape to play can't figure out there's a difference between 20BB and 100BB. (Maybe pokerstars has a fish scanner that makes everything inside parenthesis invisible if you deposit more than you cash out?)

Ah, the poker equivalent of pulling your **** out and flopping it on the table. Classy.


I'd be 100% for blind levels having their own column. Seems fair. I'm confident fish play these games because they want to, not because they're being "tricked" somehow.

I think a lot of fish don't take much notice of the type of table they have joined. They just open up the lobby for whatever stakes they play and find a table they can join now. The reason I think the short tables have a higher proportion of fish is that they don't tend to have waiting lists so you can join them straight away. Same logic for why you get a higher proportion of fish if you start up new tables to if you join all your tables from waiting lists.

+1 to preferrin CAP to 20-50bb tables, even though I think they would be more attractive to the more thinking fish.

It's not that I don't enjoy tacos as a food.

You must have a support for a cause when choosing where to dine. I feel the commitment during these years to support the American economy by eating American food, made by American corporations, served by American citizens or legitimate workers on American work visa.

That being said, the only place I find pride eating tacos is Taco Bell, and all they have is small unauthentic tacos that taste like crap.

I will start enjoying eating authentic tacos and burritos again when the economy recovers. I hope I have injected my American pride into all of you and that you will all do the same.

fish should be spread evenly with a large knife

seems like another plus for tacos iyam

[ ] everyone itt is an americanian

keep them.

Poker Stars choices:

1) 40-100bb scarecly-exploitable-post-flop-shark-HUD-botters playing 16/14, 3bet of 8 (at any reasonable stake)

2) 20-50bb mix of push/fold FPP rat-holers and un-educated casual players/maniacs resulting in an easy preflop game that hardly allows you to beat the rake (if at all at a reasonable stake)

Choice 1 offers a complex card/math game that only 1 in thousands seem to be able to out-lie. Choice 2 is simple dice math and even less can out-lie.


100bb post flop shark HUD botters lost the feed casual players so they want things to change.

Rat-holers ended up getting fed the casual players due to the lobby labeling system - they don't want things to change.

It is possible that by losing the overlay of the deep stacker opening too wide for the effective stack size, that the advanced rat-holer is not happy either - especially at 50NL at up where the supply casual players become thin even for the shallow games. Most 5-25NL short stackers perhaps don't see this yet.

The facts are pretty simple, actually, and there is no reason to berate SSers for wanting a simple FPP game nor is there any reason to tell the shark-HUD-botter to go get a job at BK etc. You are just poisoning yourselves by insulting each other. It just doesn't do anyone any good.

Everyone (understandably) wants what is best for their bottom line.

My vote is to put it all back together so I can play poker and make my hobby more enjoyable. Or label the games in such a fashion that promotes a more even distribution of casual gamblers - but I'll get flamed for this by rat-holers because this concept threatens their lively hood.

Why did I write this? Tacos sounding good right now.

hud botting posers are not sharks

fyi

and dat kid still needs to post his sn

and plz explain theory of unfair lobby labeling system

i wanna hear sum good arguments

and USA IS #1

I'm feeling inspired to buy some non-American goods right about now.

YO IF U BUY BK QUAD STACKERS U ARE EVERYTHING AMERICA STANDS FOR

IF U BUY GENERAL TAO CHICKEN THEN U R AMERICA TOO

For the abusive ratholers that's certainly true.

Me and others though also have the integrity of the game as a competitive sport on our side. 20bb poker is a very bad representation of what the game can be with regard to competition, and that's one aspect of this argument that for the most part the ratholers don't even attempt to defend.

omg general tao chicken is so good

This comment for example:

Very typical 20bb ratholer attitude. That's something I can't imagine myself ever saying. These people don't care about the game at all, so maybe we shouldn't listen to their opinions about what games should be offered?

I don't understand how somebody who's dedicated so much of their adult life to poker and earns their living playing the game can have such a detached greedy disposition toward the game, but I see the same attitude from 20bb ratholers all the time.

You almost never see that attitude from a standard player, because for the most part we really do respect the game for its competitive merit. 20bb ratholers talk about poker like it's just a lever they pull to make nickels fall out.

BK Stackers are awesome, and although I love many things about America and Americans I AM NOT EVERYTHING AMERICA STANDS FOR, EH!

They make quads? OMG, I can't even imagine going past the double.

Close call between Wendy's Baconator and the BK Stacker IMO. I lean towards the Baconator.

Also consider this:

What do you think the poll results would be if the question was "Should PokerStars drop 5-card Draw?"

Or "Should PokerStars drop NL 2-7 Triple Draw?"

Nobody likes those games, but nobody would want them dropped. You can just choose not to sit at those games and they don't affect you at all.

20-50bb on the other hand, is a cloud that rains piss, and it's hovering over all of internet poker and whether you sit at those tables or not, 20-50bb is still pissing on you. That's why people want it dead.

But what if the question was "Should McDonald's drop the Big Mac"?

Or "Should McDonald's drop the McRib"?

Maybe that last one should read "Should McDonald's have ever created the abomination called the McRib".

I don't think I could have said it better. This is 100% exactly how I see Stars now as well.

I'll just say that 20bb rats almost definitely eat more McRibs per capita than 100bb players.

And they probably put it down their hole really quickly once you hand it to them.

I'll defend this aspect of it.

20bb poker does have fierce competition and strategic elements. The only difference in this regard is that when you are better than someone at 100+BB poker, you screw them harder and faster. How is that good for the game?

Limit players mention all the time that NL is bad for the game because it knocks out fish too quickly and punishes them too much. 100BB punishes fish way faster than 20BB.

If you really cared about the long term health of the game, you'd be playing limit poker.

You seriously think 20-50BB poker is a "bad representation of what the game can be as competition" but 100BB is excellent? Please. 100BB poker doesn't represent live casino poker (where you can buy in deeper) where more fish play, nor does it represent tournament poker (where the most crucial decisions are made under 50BB) that's so popular on television.

100BB poker is about the farthest thing from what would represent the competitive elite in this game, except in one area: 100BB poker online.


The only reason this is true is because 20-50BB poker is popular. If 5 card draw became popular, it would affect 100BB NLHE games in exactly the same ways as 20-50BB NL does. If anything, it'd be worse, since some players who play at 20-50 for awhile "move up" to 100BB, whereas if one of those other games became popular, it'd be less likely for them to move over.

I wonder if there was this same kind of uproar when turbo tables were first introduced. In many ways it's an identical situation - 20-50BB moves faster, with higher variance and less edge for a pro. Should we get rid of turbo tournament tables too?

No matter what else you say, it boils down to "but the new game sucks because now my old game isn't as popular!" 20-50BB poker doesn't break the game. It doesn't kill fish faster. It's just a different twist on the same game, like Pot Limit, No Limit, antes, rush poker, or whatever else.

This is like a car company complaining that motorcycles are a horrible idea and should be illegal.

People do things because they enjoy them. It turns out people don't enjoy your favorite thing as much as you do, so you want to take away what they enjoy so they'll come back and you have someone to play with. Grow up.