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Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read.

02-28-2014 , 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmiley
Good point! Although all players in the EU are playing on PS.eu and PS.eu is licensed in Malta and subject to Maltese regulation and the Maltese Lotteries and Gaming Authority. Doesn't change that this way you are able to retrieve all information Stars has about you. Just send them a request, applicable law can be found here: http://www.idpc.gov.mt/dbfile.aspx/DPA_amended2012.pdf (article 21).

You can also complain online @ the Maltese Lotteries and Gaming Authority: https://www.playresponsibly.org.mt/C...MFb_3ZwaX8846I

PokerStars violated Maltese regulations as they require that the possibility of filing a complaint with the Maltese Lotteries and Gaming Authority is mentioned in the case of an unresolved dispute. Mark referred you to a much colder island instead. Don't know if he intentionally send you the wrong way, but he's violating the rules Stars is subject to for sure.

The UK is part of the EU, and UK Pokerstars players are not regulated by Malta.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
02-28-2014 , 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyg2001
The UK is part of the EU, and UK Pokerstars players are not regulated by Malta.
Then I was wrong in generalising, doesn't matter for OP though, he'll be playing on .eu if he's indeed Dutch iirc.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
02-28-2014 , 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by invictus-1
wrong. there's been no evidence provided by pokerstars whatsoever. they just said that they cannot comment on the issue.
I stand by everything I said in my post.

The questions about the relationship to other players, Michael loosely implying it had nothing to do with his play or play style, and other subtle hints all favor the idea that he is being accused of possible fraud.

You can choose to ignore those hints if you want, or deem them unimportant, but they were pretty obvious to me imho and fwiw.

This means nothing and does nothing to discredit anything I wrote.

Its totally irrelevant.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
02-28-2014 , 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thStreetHog
I stand by everything I said in my post.

The questions about the relationship to other players, Michael loosely implying it had nothing to do with his play or play style, and other subtle hints all favor the idea that he is being accused of possible fraud.

You can choose to ignore those hints if you want, or deem them unimportant, but they were pretty obvious to me imho and fwiw.



This means nothing and does nothing to discredit anything I wrote.

Its totally irrelevant.
I dont remeber your previous post

but if I understand you correctly your saying the pokerstars rep implied that it was due to fraud that he was being asked to no longer play on the site, instead of confisicating funds first which requires more proof.

then I 100% agree with you.

the pokerstars rep certainly was talking about and implying this with his example stories and the burden of proof.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
02-28-2014 , 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thStreetHog
I stand by everything I said in my post.

The questions about the relationship to other players, Michael loosely implying it had nothing to do with his play or play style, and other subtle hints all favor the idea that he is being accused of possible fraud.

You can choose to ignore those hints if you want, or deem them unimportant, but they were pretty obvious to me imho and fwiw.
you just went from saying that "[t]he overwhelming evidence supports him being banned because Pokerstars believes he was possibly involved in fraudulent activity" to "[PokerStars is] loosely implying it had nothing to do with his play or play style and other subtle hints."

PR statements shouldn't "drop hints" and "make people read between the lines."
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 12:43 AM
I just wanted to make sure everyone saw this in the other thread about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by J0hny
Might be a sick coincidence for you.
Been railing this situation and I decided to check out these accounts for lolz from "russian PTR" and all these 5 accounts are new players and have only played against you and all 5 of them are losing and very few hands.
So, no wonder stars is suspicous even when ur clean.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...7&postcount=50
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by invictus-1
you just went from saying that "[t]he overwhelming evidence supports him being banned because Pokerstars believes he was possibly involved in fraudulent activity" to "[PokerStars is] loosely implying it had nothing to do with his play or play style and other subtle hints."

PR statements shouldn't "drop hints" and "make people read between the lines."
Considering the evidence I stated supporting the idea that they are accusing him of possible fraudulent activity is the only evidence we have, and there is absolutely zero evidence that it had to do with grimming, bumhunting, or him being a winning player, what about either of my posts confuses you?

o·ver·whelm·ing
[ ṑvər wélming ]

extremely large: extremely large in amount or proportion

Let me simplify it for you, every single piece of evidence we have supports the idea that they are accusing him of fraud and has nothing to do with his play style.


As far as you retorting to me that they should give him an idea what he was accused of, if you would have read the thread youd have seen I was one of the first people to say that.

You are a week late.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thStreetHog
I agree. I understand security and privacy concerns but they could give the affected party at least a primitive vague explanation that doesnt compromise either imho.

For example, we have suspicions you could have been involved in fraud, or, we have decided to no longer accept your business because of your past behavior at the tables ect.

But perhaps they cant do that legally so we are left with reading between the lines and analyzing the only evidence we have, which all supports him being accused of possible fraud. Anything else, as I stated, is just random speculation with nothing to support it.

I hope I cleared that up for you.


Anyways, Im done with, good luck.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 01:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1
Does no one else see the purpose of a business not being transparent on a lot of these security issues?

If you're in a store, are asked to leave, and request a reason, do you think the owner is going to point to the hidden camera over there and say "I'm 60% certain that I saw you doing _____ while you were in that aisle over there with persons x, y and z, who were doing ____."

From that point on, and especially in the case of online security where it's posted for the world to see, that security measure becomes completely ineffectual after it's exposed to a single customer.
ding ding ding ding


all you people hating on stars for not being transparent should read this post
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 01:40 AM
I feel for you OP, this is pretty unacceptable, I would keep fighting this! Good luck and I hope you get your account back.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 03:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by barradri
I would guess that 95% of Stars players are not aware of the T+Cs or taken the time to read them.

Have you ever said a bad word about Stars Bobo?

BTW im not anti-stars
I hate stars with a passion but it is there right to ban people whenever they feel like it.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 04:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crabbyface
I hate stars with a passion but it is there right to ban people whenever they feel like it.
The argument isn't their right to ban players but that players who have been banned be given a reason in order to refute said reasons, With that said it looks as though Stars position is that it isn't up to them and that they can only give the information to Isle of Man Gambling Supervision Commission but not to the OP for reasons unknown.

No idea why you hate stars, I wish they were able to give the OP the information requested but it looks like it's out of their hands.

If a mistake was made I hope the OP gets his account back.
If not then he is wasting his and everyone's time.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 04:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by invictus-1
nobody is disputing what stars can and cannot do-- it's obvious that they are a private company and they can deny service to whomever they wish. what the people want to know is whether stars' policies have shifted towards a "gaming industry standard." if there really is a new risk assessment policy, does it factor in their winrates and amount of rake paid? this information is important because it makes the difference between whether or not it is worth for these people to play on stars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G
This.

Just because a site has in their T&C's that they can do whatever they want with no recourse is not that alarming. What is alarming is when they actually start to do it.
I just don't get why we're still going down this road. Does this mean you guys actually think a regulation would exist that would prohibit Stars from telling a player he was being banned for his winrate? Or that they're lying about this being an issue of what regulations allow them to do?

Meh, I don't know why I'm still bothering. If you guys really want to continue running around fretting over Stars booting OP for some reason to do with his style of play despite there being no evidence of that, knock yourselves out I guess.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madcatz1999
Protection of business interests is a valid defense, though. The example given in the letter of the law is that a company can refuse to serve someone with a poor credit rating. Depending on what their reason is (which, ofc, we don't know), PS might be able to argue with that defense.
Possibly.

Although, in your example, the customer is usually told of the reasons, can access a full copy of his credit report via credit reference agencies and has plenty of other options that can provide the same substantive service (even small banks can grant mortgages for hundreds of thousands). So thats hardly the same issue due to it not being a dominant position and the abundance of information available.

I should point out that whilst I think Stars have to provide a reason and can be compelled via the courts to do so (either now or in the future) theres nothing stopping them from coming up with a valid reason and OP still not being allowed back on Stars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madcatz1999
One could also make the argument (I won't make it) that they're not in a "dominant market position", given that market share isn't the sole determinant of that.
Anything over 50% raises a presumption that it is a dominant position though. Ive no idea what Stars' (or rather Rational Groups) market share is, but Im guessing its >80%. Suggesting that that level isnt a dominant position seems unarguable to me.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 12:31 PM
come on stars at least provide a reason...
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett
I just don't get why we're still going down this road. Does this mean you guys actually think a regulation would exist that would prohibit Stars from telling a player he was being banned for his winrate? Or that they're lying about this being an issue of what regulations allow them to do?

Meh, I don't know why I'm still bothering. If you guys really want to continue running around fretting over Stars booting OP for some reason to do with his style of play despite there being no evidence of that, knock yourselves out I guess.
I'm not, nor have I ever, suggested that Stars is banning him for his "griming, bumhunting, or being a winning player".

If it is due to these new accounts then they should just say we are banning you due to your possible relationship with these 5 new accounts. As it stands they provide no reason and it's for that lack of openness that I have issues with. There is no regulation that's stopping them from stating that this is the reason as we've seen countless threads on here where we've seen that email stating due to your relationship with x we no longer want your business.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G
I'm not, nor have I ever, suggested that Stars is banning him for his "griming, bumhunting, or being a winning player".
You're right, I shouldn't have grouped your posts together, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G
If it is due to these new accounts then they should just say we are banning you due to your possible relationship with these 5 new accounts. As it stands they provide no reason and it's for that lack of openness that I have issues with. There is no regulation that's stopping them from stating that this is the reason as we've seen countless threads on here where we've seen that email stating due to your relationship with x we no longer want your business.
And what if it's something like this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xalas
Maybe the reason was that with so many new accounts playing against you and losing triggered an anti money-laundering measure that pokerstars must comply and Must not disclose as a result their hands are tied so you have to contact Isle of Man Gambling Supervision Commission to find out the reasons.

In any case it looks like it's not that PokerStars won't tell you but they must not tell you the reasons for the ban but they can tell GSC and GSC are the only one that can:
1. tell you
2. tell Stars it's ok to tell you.
However even if the GSC have the reasons and can tell you may decide not to anyways.
also even if the GSC clears you that doesn't mean PokerStars will give you your account back.

Best of luck assuming you're innocent.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 07:26 PM
I suppose there is a possibility to what xalas posted. Therefore I'll back off final judgement until then. I hope OP notifies the IOM gaming commission to find out if that's the scenario.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 08:18 PM
Quote:

In any case it looks like it's not that PokerStars won't tell you but they must not tell you the reasons for the ban but they can tell GSC and GSC are the only one that can:
1. tell you
2. tell Stars it's ok to tell you.
However even if the GSC have the reasons and can tell you may decide not to anyways.
also even if the GSC clears you that doesn't mean PokerStars will give you your account back
The crucial word there is "can" - they are not obliged to tell GSC and even if they do GSC has the discretion to not even tell the player that reason they were banned.

If P/S informs them that it was a highly sensitive security reason that he was banned, that will provide the GSC with even more impetus to not provide that reason to the player. And there is nothing stopping P/S IMO from providing a totally irrelevant reason to GSC to justify the banning given the ambiguities in the clause cited by P/S to ban the player and the lack of external investigative power that the GSC has into P/S operations.

The other point is that even if they do inform the OP of a reason there is no legal recourse that the OP can turn to.

The GSC can only make guidance and recommendations it cannot order P/S to do something such as re-instituting his account.

The Independent Arbitration Service which appears as an option on GSC's site to independently arbitrate on the matter cannot do anything as Pokerstars is not a registered operator and thus not subject to this service.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G
I suppose there is a possibility to what xalas posted. Therefore I'll back off final judgement until then. I hope OP notifies the IOM gaming commission to find out if that's the scenario.
Yes, i'm going to follow that route even though I have zero hopes that will change anything. Haven't had the time to as I've had a few busy days, but I will in the next few days.

I just can't see how it would lead to them reopening my account, I'm pretty sure they will just tell IOMGC that someone tried to launder money (or wtf there might be going on, I still don't have a clue) and now i'm a 'risk', and IOMGC will be like, okaaay decision made you were right now stop wasting our time. I might be a bit pessimistic but I don't really believe in these 'regulatory bodies'. Just see how they handled previous situations where sites went broke, like minted.

But I'm still going to try, even though i'm super frustrated and about to smash things here in my office.

Oh, I wanted to say something to all these people telling me 'hey man look they can just ban you even when you are totally innocent so stop complaining'.

Just imagine you'd be lifted from your bed one day, put in front of a judge, and be told 'so yeah we think you committed a crime, we don't have proof or well at least, we are not going to tell you what proof we think we have, and yeah, you can not appeal to this verdict, and we are not even going to tell you how we came to our conclusion, so yeah, here's a life long sentence'.

Would you just shrug and be like, oh yeah that's fine?

Or would you say 'that's a weird analogy'? Because that's what happens in North Korea and I'm sure everyone is against a governement treating people that way. Why is it suddenly ok if it's a 'private company'?
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvanhoe
Just imagine you'd be lifted from your bed one day, put in front of a judge, and be told 'so yeah we think you committed a crime, we don't have proof or well at least, we are not going to tell you what proof we think we have, and yeah, you can not appeal to this verdict, and we are not even going to tell you how we came to our conclusion, so yeah, here's a life long sentence'.

Would you just shrug and be like, oh yeah that's fine?

Or would you say 'that's a weird analogy'? Because that's what happens in North Korea and I'm sure everyone is against a governement treating people that way. Why is it suddenly ok if it's a 'private company'?
That definitely is an absurd analogy. You haven't been sentenced by Stars, their aim is not to punish you. They don't want to do business with you anymore, that's all.

And even though I can see why you don't think the way Stars handled is fine, that doesn't mean Stars should have handled differently. Sometimes in life you have to accept that something isn't fine, but that you can't do anything about it either. Even if you could, your self-respect should prevent you from making such a drama after being turned away. That analogy about being refused entrance at a club and keeping asking the bouncer to get in was pretty spot-on.

And obviously government behaviour is subject to completely different standards than behaviour of private companies. There's so many reasons for that I don't even know where to begin. A pretty fundamental principle of civilised countries is that private parties are entitled to do as they wish as long as they don't invade the freedom of someone else. This obviously includes choosing who to do business with unless discrimination is involved. A government is chosen by the people to serve the interests of the people and as such it doesn't have a self-standing claim to arbitrarily do as it sees fit.

If you really think someone owes you a reason to not do business with you, how would that apply to yourself if the roles are reversed? Do you owe Lock-poker an explanation for not playing there? Do you have to prove Lock-poker is insolvent before you can refuse to do business with them? Does not doing business with Lock makes your behaviour comparable to the North-Korean government?

The comparison with North-Korea is poorly chosen anyway. Not being able to play on Stars are just white man's problems, although you do manage to make a big fuss out of it.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 10:03 PM
I still feel that the parameters set up by Rational Group and the IOM license for denying business should be consistent regardless of whether the site is at risk to losing money or players are at risk of losing money.
I don't believe this to be parallel.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuySmiley
That definitely is an absurd analogy. You haven't been sentenced by Stars, their aim is not to punish you. They don't want to do business with you anymore, that's all.
Try being a pro and being locked out of the 2 sites that hold like 70% of the market. That's not a 'white mans problem' it means you are near jobless after having invested 7 years of your life getting where you are.

How is that not being sentenced? And how should I not make a drama? It's so easy to post such absurd **** when you are a random recreational player.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvanhoe
Try being a pro and being locked out of the 2 sites that hold like 70% of the market. That's not a 'white mans problem' it means you are near jobless after having invested 7 years of your life getting where you are.

How is that not being sentenced? And how should I not make a drama? It's so easy to post such absurd **** when you are a random recreational player.
looks like you are going to have to move to NJ
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvanhoe
Try being a pro and being locked out of the 2 sites that hold like 70% of the market. That's not a 'white mans problem' it means you are near jobless after having invested 7 years of your life getting where you are.
Doesn't seems a big concern for you, I quote yourself in another thread :

Quote:
Originally Posted by lvanhoe
Stars is actually the only site I don't play on.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&postcount=31
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote
03-01-2014 , 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvanhoe
Try being a pro and being locked out of the 2 sites that hold like 70% of the market. That's not a 'white mans problem' it means you are near jobless after having invested 7 years of your life getting where you are.

How is that not being sentenced? And how should I not make a drama? It's so easy to post such absurd **** when you are a random recreational player.
Whether something is a punishment or not is based upon the intent of the acting party, and not upon how the action is perceived by the person impacted. If an employer fires someone for whatever reason, that is a punishment because someone lost his job? Obviously not: negative consequences ≠ punishment. So it's not being sentenced because a sentence is intended as punitive, and as far as we can know Stars doesn't intend to punish you but just wants to avoid doing business with you any longer. If they would want to punish you they'd make clear why they did it to deter others from doing the same. The problem is you look at all this only from your own perspective, and refuse to take the perspective from someone else into account. Maybe that’s why you didn’t answer the Lock question; that requires you to look at it from Stars perspective, and then your logic fails.

You shouldn’t make a drama because you gain nothing by it, and I wouldn’t because it’d be bad for my self-respect to give some random Stars security employee the idea my life depends on him. But that might be personal.

WTF. OP you might best be honest about where you're playing and for how long etcetera. Personally I believe that Stars made a weird decision in your case. Although they are unlickely to change their mind anyway, inconsistancies like this for sure won't help.

*

Edit/MH: Link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&postcount=31

Last edited by Mike Haven; 03-02-2014 at 04:55 AM.
Pokerstars closed my account - I have been a midstakes headsup player for years. Please read. Quote

      
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