Good point.

not easy. you still have a huge advantage if you opt-in for seats in an automated way. i would love to but can not think of a solution that can not be exploited other than taking away seat selection altogether. for best effect couple w a fee on seat taking (like you always get seated in he BB when joining a table).

it has the effect of giving tim maximum pain, so it should be good ;-)

What should be on the agenda?

I'd rather have someone try to represent these important concerns in a professional way and fail trying, than someone go there address a lot of minor detail stuff that are just masking the real problems.

and tis comes from somebody who correct me if i'm wrong is neither using a script himself nor is in favour of their existence...

Natis aren't you a candidate?

No, see http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...users-1373965/

he was attending last meeting so his points are probably pretty spot on what can be done and wat can't be done...

I know, I meant to ask why he wasn't :-)

regarding seating scripts and lack of table starters, why dont stars offer triple points for some arbitrary amount of time for the first 2 players to sit and play?

May be I didn't read enough but I do wanna help because I think this is a good thing which helps all players at Stars so whatever you guys wanna vote for, I'm in. Tell me what to do? There, I gave my consent to be penetrated, please do me.

Oh, I PMed Doll but his reply tells me, I have no faaking idea what's going on.

Imagine being completely ignorant of the impact of rake and playing in a $200 game with a 20% to $5 rake. If you play a group of people even remotely comparable to you you're going to come out a huge - very huge loser. Even if you run hot as the sun it'd still be tough to come out ahead. Now after you lose all your money the host of the game says if you come back he'll give you some random special prize. The reason I used the absurd 20% to $5 rake is because losing players tend to pay a whole heck of a lot more rake than you and I due to their typical style of play. Sound like a fun game to play in to you? What are you going to think after playing this game for a little while and seeing no matter what you do, no matter how well you play (or run), you lose lose lose?

Beyond this most players don't even stick around long enough to lose enough to reach that prize status. The goal of pushing alternative profit models, which does not inherently necessitate the site give up enormous amounts of money, is to make the games more fun. Make games where if you sit down and play at a table with people of about equal level to you - you don't walk away completely broke in a few hours thanks to some "invisible force". I mean that's even a double whammy. Not only do they quit playing but then they go run around yelling that PokerStars is rigged, the house has shills playing for them, etc. It's viral. Go google for "pokerstars reviews." Can you imagine how many millions of players that sort of stuff has deterred from playing all together or pushed struggling players away from trying to improve, and playing, since "it's all rigged anyhow"?

Great point you made about about losing players not sticking around long enough to reach those prize statuses, the more of your posts I read the more I'm thinking WE NEED "DO IT RIGHT" TO GO THESE MEETINGS along with the other winner from the votes, shame you can't make it

"how" much these extra percentages of rake are actually impacting players and which category of players it's impacting most/least I'm struggling to understand if i'm to be completely honest, having never been a regular cash game player
All I know is there is a cap on rake which will benefit those playing the higher stakes, as the rake % they're paying is less than that of the players playing at the medium/small/micro stakes, right? and that combined with the 40-70% rakeback you can be earning as supernovas and higher, so that's giving lots of reasons for the big winners in the cash games to be sticking around but not the other "losing" category of players to stick around and they're making up a massive majority of the overall number of players?
No idea what the differences are in PLO rake to that of NLHE rake

Is what I mentioned above something that is driving away so many recreational players and the frequent losing players?
I'm probably being a bit of a simpleton here but I just want to be sure I'm understanding some of the big issues

@Do It Right
about you being a candidate: are you declining to go to this October meeting only or to any future meetings in general?

I agree with this sentiment. Issues that Stars has discussed at length and will not be budged on need to be out of the schedule for sake of discussing subjects that might actually get acted upon.


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...y-mtt-1364515/

^^PLO MTT seems like a no-brainer and not much discussion needed.


The biggest issue in my games right now imo (PLO mid to high stakes) is ridiculous amounts of multi-accounting going on and I would like more discussion in to ways of cutting this out. This ties in to having known cheaters banned from live events to discourage people from cheating the games given how easily people seem to get away with it. This is what is most in my interest to be discussed there.

They also said that if they do budge on it, it would be in removing table selection altogether.

In Steve's report he said they have no interest in this...

There's a long list of guys I would rather have represent myself than myself. I enjoyed the meeting in April, and think it was productive, but think that someone like OMGClayDoll can do a much better job in these type of meetings than I can.

I realise that a lot of the players aren't around long enough to generate enough points for rewards, especially at micro stakes even as a multi-tabler who was winning it would take ages to get a couple decks or a shirt let alone something nicer, when I first started.
That being said, most losing players have such a huge loss rate that even a significant reduction in rake (which is even more unlikely to happen than a "slight" reduction) is unlikely going to give them much more playing time nor will it reduce their feelings about "always losing KK to AA" etc. Not saying I completely disagree with your opinion or points, but I am just not entirely convinced.

I responded on the MAing issue recently already but I definitely agree that there is no excuse for Stars to not do more about this ESPECIALLY in cases where proof is abundant so I will be sure to raise this issue if I am selected. I don't think bannings from live events (especially non Stars run events) is particularly likely, but even if they are I think any punishments from being online alone should be enough to deter people.

I believe that it would be positive for the meeting to revisit the scripting issue. Since the last meeting in April there have been a few scripts that have hit the open market (commercial marketplace 2p2). One even charging 20% of profits. Maybe in seeing how these programs operate they will be able to to see if it is easier to enforce a ban on them.

I thought a new MTT schedule was coming out that would include a major PLO mtt. That was the plan anyhow. Not sure on the status of this.


Multi-accounting needs to be taken more serious this time. I know it is incredibly hard to enforce but I'm sure some things could be brainstormed especially for the high-stakes games.


The reps saying that they want Stars to bring in more recreational players, you should read the reports of the last meeting. This is always top priority whether it is in marketing or just making the software more user-friendly for them.

i hope i am not wrong in my assumption that they are informed to every thinkable degree of detail how these programs work. everything else would seriously shock me.

Calm down , they obv know.

I agree that those scripts are not desireable for the eco-system, but urge the Reps to be careful. We might end up with losing the opportunity to table-select.

"Guys, you spoke, we listened. To render those evil scripts useless we removed table-selection.......and no, we won't make some extra-buck on that....like always."

@OMGClay

I wasnt advocating reps to have a negative 'us vs them' approach in any way, that is just pointless. But I would like to know where Stars is at atm with the issues described in this OP, creating a lengthy thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-more-1284806/

My feeling is the problem is bigger than just multi-accounting (!) and it's even worse at the lower stakes. An effective way to at least reduce it -that you may not like- is by reducing the maximum amount of tables starting at these lower stakes. Say at the lowest stake the maximum would be 8, at the next level 12 etcetera.

Short term PS and us would make less money, but obviously long term we would make a lot more. The biggest issue PLO highstakes is facing may be all the fish get killed at microstakes and we never get fresh fish anymore. Look at it like a foodchain.

Why do the losing players on Pokerstars have such a huge loss rate?

The reasons I think of off the top:

1) Mass Multitabling is allowed on Pokerstars
2) Outside 3rd Party software which assists in ones ability to mass Multitable and/or table select much more proficiently on Pokerstars
3) A Rewards system that effectively rakes high volume players(usually REGS)much less than lower volume players(generally losing or first time depositing players)

What this creates is a very imbalanced REG to REC ratio at the tables which leads to their huge loss rates.

If you can think of other reasons or reasons my statements are false I'd like to hear them.

#1 and #2 probably are not going anywhere as Pokerstars seems to like to boast about number one and number two ties into a players ability to get number one done but number #3 can be addressed and changed.

Stop thinking about Rewards as anything other than rakeback. A REC player taking a less valued item in the store is just the same as him taking a worse off rakeback deal.

How can you expect them to compete at the tables when they are getting raked effectively on average so much more than the majority of REGS on the site?