The year is 2011 your software looks like something from a dark distant age, I mean late registration ?? This cannot be that hard to implement surely ?

Tell playtech to stop skimming every currency conversion

Should add paddypower are awesome and one of the best gambling outfits there are. Thanks for listening to the players here but yeah we have a lot of money skimmed off us at the tables with the currency conversions. Also the bot situation needs to be dealt with. I have no doubt paddypower do not want those players but I cannot see how playtech can claim it is a priority for them.

Are they? I def heard about this a year or so ago, but now when leaving a table it says "do you want to convert this money back at the same rate you bought it for".

Can I ask, Jamie, given the large amounts of rake iPoker will lose by removing these bots, what makes you think that they will want to do so now, given that they have never done so before?

Also, what will you, Paddy Power, do to ensure that iPoker are dealing with this in a proper, fair and honest manner?

It still goes on I am pretty sure http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...layers-883575/

The end of the thread you linked seems to suggest that they correct it with 1 cent deposits.

Edit: post 294 and 298

Hi Milkfish. Yeah I read that to but I checked my ipoker cashier. i put in huge volume on ipoker and have no such deposits to my account. I am not sure what that was about. Also there was a very recent post to the small stakes ipoker regs thread explaining the situation very well and saying it still goes on. Unfortunately I cannot find it at the moment.

I definately dont have those correctional deposits on my account tho.

Ah ok. Maybe it was just his skin (William Hill) that do this.

Hi Guys,

The currency skimming is a rounding technique used by every other poker network.

As always we will pass on your concerns to Playtech.

Hi FatalToPretend,

We know Playtech take the issue of bots seriously because we've seen Paddy accounts guilty of foul play routinely locked.

Every poker site that has or has had bots will lose short term rake as a result of taking a strong line against bots. Playtech along with the vast majority of poker sites appreciate that the most important factor in running a successful poker network is ensuring players are happy.

I personally believe that a lot of the problems and bad feedback stem from the fact that players are reguarly reporting customers as bots who are not. We've received a lot of PMs and some of the accused bots are real life players and not guilty of any foul play whatsoever.

On top of this the reporting party often expects details of the verification process which are impossible to provide.


We know that Playtech are handling this situation properly because we can actually see the results. We will also be conducting our own investigations into alleged bots and passing on any evidence to Playtech. When we recognise blatant foul play Playtech are extremely receptive and act quickly.

I feel that the majority of posters expect to submit usernames and the account to be banned within a few days. No operator conducts itself like this, it's not the fair way to do things and every potential bot or colluder must be investigated.

I'm still extremely keen to receive PM's concerning bots. The more proof and detailed evidence we can get from the players the stronger our case will be. Thus far a good number of 2+2er's have been in touch, but seldom supply us with anymore information other than a long list of usernames. Of course we're in the process of investigating these, but it would help if people helped us understand why they suspect these accounts of being bots.

Hope this helps.

I feel this post could get quite lengthy, so I apologise in advance for that.

Jamie, while you seem to be genuinely interested in helping remove bots from the network, I still feel you're hugely in denial about how seriously iPoker deal with bots. Either that or iPoker have managed to pull the wool over your eyes.

I don't know how many accounts you've seen locked, but when you see posts like this:

Surely that should worry you massively? That is the general opinion, (I could find you another 50 posts saying roughly the same) whenever bots on iPoker are mentioned. There are so many knowledgeable and trusted people saying this, that it has to be believed to be true, until PROVEN otherwise. Sadly, you need to accept that the fact you've seen a few accounts being closed, does not in any way mean that iPoker have been dealing with this properly.

The point I was trying to make was that the situation on iPoker is totally different in terms of revenue. If PokerStars for example found a bot, it would be a one off player, playing human-like amounts of hours, so as not to be caught. So, banning that one player, does not make any significant difference to the site's income whatsoever.

However, iPoker have allowed their network to become overrun with bots, some of whom are putting in sessions way beyond the capabilities of human players, so these bots are each generating way more income for iPoker and the sites than any human player could. For some of the smaller sites on the network, I imagine losing a few high-raking bots could be crippling. What makes you think that iPoker are willing to lose what will be a big percentage of their daily rake by banning these players, when they haven't been willing to do so in the past?

Yes, that's your (Paddy Power and iPoker's) job, to investigate. In most cases it should be fairly easy to spot the difference between human play and botting. I imagine there will only be a few time-consuming cases where it's really hard to tell and require further investigation.

We don't expect you to give out your exact bot detection methods, as obviously that would help the bots work around it in future. However, we do expect an openness and honesty as to what you have found. ANY investigation that goes on, the results are PUBLISHED so that people can see the result, the evidence and that everything is above board. So, if you receive a claim of a player being a bot, you need to say either, 'Yes, we agree, here is the action we will take,' or , 'No, we feel this is not a bot, because....'

There HAS to be that openness. The secrecy and hidden workings of iPoker are what has allowed this bot problem to get to ridiculous levels. iPoker being allowed to simply say, 'No, it's not a bot,' with no evidence or explanation whatsoever, is what has enabled them to let all of these high-raking bots continue playing unpunished.

Here is a letter which Pokerstars sent out with regards to a botting investigation of their own:

'Hello PokerStars Players,

Please rest assured that we do not tolerate automated players (bots) on PokerStars. We have an extensive arsenal of detection tools in order to ensure that each player is a human being.

We have been monitoring and examining 'rs03rs03' using those tools for quite some time, and the player has always shown very human characteristics, and an ability to pass various tests, including CAPTCHA and many others. Despite this, we, too, have been concerned with the seemingly astonishing volume of play exhibited by this player, especially in recent weeks as his volume has increased dramatically.

As such, we recently froze his account and asked the player for a controlled demonstration, and the player agreed. We dispatched a PokerStars representative to the player's home to observe several hours of play on June 1st, 2010. That observation convinced us that the player is not using a bot.

We cannot violate the player's privacy -- the player has asked to remain anonymous, and not to discuss their strategy. However, among our observations:

1) The player uses a set of self-written hotkeys similar to many commercially available suites (TableNinja.com comes to mind).

- The hotkeys manage automatically joining tables without regard to opponent selection
- The hotkeys close unnecessary popups like "It is free to check", automatically
- The hotkeys require the player to enter every bet, raise, check, or fold manually

2) Both in prior play, and during our in-person observation, we witnessed many "mistakes", such as pre-flop folds of AA and KK.

3) The player was able to verbally chat with our representative during play, while continuing to play.

4) We took video of the play at various times, and conducted tests at various times during the observation (such as unexpectedly asking the player to remove their hands from they keyboard, to observe whether play stopped... and it did).

We observed well over 3 hours of play, and then compared the play we observed to historical records of past play. We cannot divulge exactly what we compared, though we can say that it did include comparing his hand selection, action timing, and many other aspects. The resulting comparison very strongly indicates that the prior play is statistically identical to the observed play.

In short, our bot detection tools have borne themselves out here very nicely. The tools always indicated that the player appeared human despite ever-increasing hours of play and concurrent tables. Now, through our observations, we've independently confirmed those findings.

Please rest assured that PokerStars remains vigilant in proactively hunting for bots. We will continue to review players of concern with our tools, and continue to enhance those tools to ensure that PokerStars remains as free of bots as possible. When we find bots, we remove them from our games. We are pleased to report, however, that 'rs03rs03' is human.

Best Regards,

Jeff
PokerStars Game Security'


Now, the thoroughness and openness of their investigation is admirable and in stark contrast to iPoker. They have explained exactly what they did and exactly why they came to the conclusion that the player wasn't a bot. Any investigation needs that openness to ensure fairness. That is how the world works. Results of investigations are published for all to see, otherwise you're just running a shady, criminal organisation, (which I would suggest iPoker probably are.)



Ok, so you claim to have seen accounts closed and I believe you. I'd like you to explain to me then, how it is possible for players on your site to play 70-80 hour sessions, for months and months? That is an example I saw and was told wasn't a bot. Please explain how a human being can play sessions of that length for months on end?

I am no expert in detecting bots, there are people on here who are far more knowledgeable about it than me, but the VERY FIRST sign I would look for of a bot, would be lengthy sessions which do not match beleivable human behaviour. The very first time a player played an 80 hour, (or even 30 hour) session, that should flag something up at Paddy Power and iPoker. That account should then be suspended while you investigate. I can't begin to comprehend how a player could be allowed to play 70-80 hour sessions for months on end on your site, without being punished for breaking the rules, so please explain to me how that is possible?

If you go to the thread, 'Huge iPoker Bot Ring,' which has been around on these forums the past couple of weeks, you will see people posting in great detail about players whose stats are so similar, that they must be connected in some way, (probably bots run by the same person.) That seems like strong evidence to me. The people posting it know what they're talking about and know the difference between human play and computer-programmed play. Unless you can provide solid evidence that these players are not bots, then these knowledgeable players have to be trusted and believed.


As I've said to you previously, I think that you chatting to us on Two Plus Two is a massive step forward for Paddy Power and perhaps for iPoker. However, do not bury your head in the sand or try and defend the indefnsible, iPoker are massively at fault here, that's clear for all to see. You can't stick up for them simply because your company are so closely connected to them, when the evidence of their wrongdoing is so blatant and so overwhelming.

I'd like to vote for a rake race, fwiw, or at least, some promotion that allows you to earn the rewards irrespective of what days you are able to play.

The Iron Man requires you to play 25 days a month to get the best rewards, if I can only play 24 days it doesn't matter how much I play on them, it could be 100k points a day but I still couldn't get the $4k bonus.

At least with a rake race you can make up for off days by playing more on other days instead, rather than trying to figure out if the GF will kill you if you try to earn 10k points on her birthday....

Same comments were levelled at FT Iron Man as well, I didn't enjoy it there and not enjoying it much here. Ofc can't complain at extra promotions but a rake chase would be more interesting (and I think you would get more revenue from it as well as players chase each other).

Really ?

this particular Bot runs supported on 10 sites, ipoker skins are 5 of those sites

+1
Agree with everything you said and would much prefer a rake chase.

Hi Humanoid,

Do you have any specific software feedback we could pass onto Playtech?

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Hi Guys,

We're taking all the promotion feedback on board and will hopefully have something to report in the next few weeks.

Kepp the feedback coming.

No problem at all. I'm certain this reply will be equally lengthy.

Before we begin I want to make it clear that this thread is not for iPoker bot reporting or discussion. As always I want to make it clear that we're very interested in receiving reports via PM and helping as much as we can, but this thread cannot turn into a bot discussion thread.


Firstly, thank you for having faith in me and Paddy's intentions.

With all due respect we see a lot more in terms of the inner workings of Playtech and their bot detection methods than any players. I feel that we're certainly in a better posistion than a lot of players here to comment on the situation.


I have been doing a lot of background reading and see a lot of posts like this.

This person needs to send us details and proof. The vast majority of posts and PM's are unsubstantiated and require investigation.

I by no means want to dirty Pokerstars name because I think they're a great site.

This post is not the case. There have been numerous bot rings that are far bigger than a ring could possibly be on another site operating for several months on Pokerstars. Sites like PTR have been forced to publically out the rings before Stars made a public investigation. Check out the link below:

July 16th 2010: PTR Discover Bot Ring on Pokerstars


With that being said, the fact that bot rings exist on other sites does not excuse any foul play on PaddyPower or iPoker. I will honour my promise and continue to investigate every single PM we receive.

If this is the case people need to PM us the player's screenames along with details of why the account is suspected of foul play.

We have no motivation to host bots on our site or the network. Just like Pokerstars had to be presented proof by PTR, with so many players on the iPoker network it would help if some specific evidence and cases were given as opposed to generilisations.

I've got no motivation whatsoever to deny the presence of bots on the network and that's not what's being done here. We simply need specific examples as opposed to "Players are playing inhuman hours". What players?


This is what currently happens and I've seen players blacklisted as a result.

It's evident that you don't feel we're doing our job properly and missing instances of foul play. This is perfectly possibly, but (as I've said far too many times now) we need specific details.

We plan on letting the users who report or were effected foul play know the results of our investigation.


I agree. Any user playing solid for this length of time needs to be investigated.

Please let us know who these players are.

Paddy do not have access to the detailed iPoker network data. We can see our players and how long they play for, but that is the extent of it.

Many human players stay logged into the actual client or even wait at HU tables for several days.

I am going to ensure that this specific concern is forwarded to Playtech though.


We have been keeping a close eye on this thread. I agree there is some great information here and there has obviously been a lot of time put into detailed investigation.

This is exactly what we're looking for.


Our intention is to investigate any potential instances of foul play in as an effective a manner as possible.

I understand your point of view, but ask that you understand the predicament I'm in here as a Paddy representative. It is truly the case that the vast majority of complaints are non-specific and there is very little I can do about them.

Although I appreciate you taking the time to make this post it does not help our mission.

Great post paddypower, thanks for addressing all the concerns.

Paddypower do you know the figures for effective rakeback for high volume players on your site? I know you cannot give out rakeback as such on ipoker but like other sites you reward your players in other ways, which works out to some equivalent %. I already have an account with your site from sportsbetting, have had it for years and am very happy with it but say I was to rake 10k next month in your pokerroom what sort of return would I get from your promotions have you the figures to hand?

Any news on this? I would have thought it was a rather quick thing to look up from your end

It depends on whether you are planning on staying there to play more months and are therefore able to save up for the better value bonuses.

Assuming you are just going to play for one month and rake $10k your rewards would look something like the following:

You would earn 200,000 points which you could use to buy $3,000
You get $800 for making 'Chief of Staff' (the highest vip level)
You would get $2,750 from iron man

Total: $6,550
So 65.5% rakeback.

I know you said you have a sports betting account there but if you haven't played poker there before you can probably get the $2k first deposit bonus to. It's 120k points to clear so you'll get it done in one month if you rake $10k.
That will add another $2,000 so 85.5%.

Assumptions:
-You spread your rake out over 20 days to take advantage of the iron man promotion. You need to get 10k points on 20 days.
-You receive the Green Card so you get a 20% discount in the store for the bonuses.
-20 points per $ raked. This is accurate for tournaments but can vary a little for cash games I think.


If you play there longer you can save up for better value bonuses so you could probably maintain around 70-80% (assuming they keep running promotions like iron man and you take advantage of them).

Spreadsheets are your friend

Milk thats a fantastic reply, thanks a lot, and a great deal. Cant take advantage of the sign up bonus unfortunately pretty sure ive played a little on there in the past.

Afaik other iPoker skins list both Point ratios for USD and EURO on their VIP pages, so in the example above with 10 US Cent and 10 Euro Cent rake it would definitely not be the same amount of Points ... it roughly adjusts to the current exchange rate though.

That's not the case on any of the four ipoker skins I've played on (including currently PaddyPower). The points gained from $1 rake, £1 and €1 rake are identical (making $ the only sensible currency to play in).

Software feedback:

Address 'skimming' for other currencies.
Better table filters. Game specific (able to set different attributes for different games)
Synchronized tournament breaks.
Auto wait for BB by default then Auto Post when needed without warning box.
Stop stealing focus when adding chips, writing notes. Very annoying when multitabling.
An auto timebank option at least for Turbo tables.

Thanks