I'm not trying to bust your balls or anything but what happens if ( and when ) you enter a downswing on Carbon. I don't know if your downswing on ACR was caused mainly by bad luck or bad play ( or because of both ) and I don;t know if Carbon is softer than ACR, but you will eventually run bad at Carbon too. What happens then ? You need to ask yourself if you're going to say rigged there too.

Don't let the crazy thoughts get to you. Remind yourself that it's a crazy sick game sometimes and you need to deal with it. The sooner you learn this, the better it will get for you. Just my 2 cents

I am not wrong it can be looked at as random. And it is is completely silly to say with absolute doubt there is no rig. It is possible that there is. There is an online poker site somewhere out there at this very moment rigging the deal. One me or you likely never heard of.

Yes as long as I don't abuse it. I could get away with it for as long as I would like. Just like a super user could get away with cheating if they didn't get too greedy.




That is one of the reasons. Everyone can't be grouped together.


And as for Action hands costing the site money ... If there were no Action hands there would be no poker. That is what most casual players are playing for. The excitement. Poker sites are not losing money due to action hands. They would lose allot more if there was no such thing. People are adrenaline junkies .. chasing that big win .. that big hand.


Anyways I didn't come in here to debate the Rig or lack of. I am going to continue to play regardless.


Good Luck At The Tables Rigged Or Not

Have you ever considered the possibility that action hands happen because they just happen ? Because it's poker and they are supposed to happen.

Also, if you are a site owner, let's say Pokerstars, wouldn't you think that juicing the deal in the way that you describe would be pretty obvious ? Even though some people are adrenaline junkies and this is what they seek, a lot of players would come out and cry wolf if Pokerstars did something like that to juice the deal. You say it would be unnoticed, I disagree and a lot of people disagree. Have you looked at Spadebidder's analysis ? Honestly, I'm going to say it again, that man deserves huge props from the poker community IMO.

The rig that you suggest would be easy to detect. Crazy hands happen because crazy hands happen. And they do happen a lot in poker. I honestly believe that a lot of people think the distribution of the cards in online poker is skewed because they've already formed an opinion ( and that opinion is usually wrong ) on how the cards should fall from either playing live poker or by watching it on TV. I hear a lot of people saying : "OMG Pokerstars is rigged, look at the full house vs full house in MTT's, juiced hands in cash games etc. That would never happen live. "

Now let's take for example the WSOP ME coverage. The average field every year is somewhere around 6000-7000 players. Obviously, I need not say that they do not manage to cover every table and any hand. They usually cover one or two feature tables and after that they go and pick some tables from the outer ones usually the ones that contain celebrities, poker pros or chip leaders and of course only some hands make it to TV.Now, I can guarantee you that if you take all of the hands that happened in every year's WSOP ME you would see a lot of crazy **** there as well.

To finalize my point, a lot of people have a flawed opinion formed on how cards should fall in the short run. If you really want to have an informed opinion on how cards fall live vs online, you would need to play about the same amount live as you have online. Usually the players that put a lot of volume live say that online poker's distribution is normal.

On an end note, if any deal, at any big site with a lot of traffic would be proven to be rigged in any small way ever, that site is dead. Literally dead. Not to mention the impact that it would have on online poker in general.

This would not be just a superuser scandal. This would be major. If something like this were to ever happen, the superuser scandal would be just a dingy, whereas the rigging would be the Titanic.

reported the thread a few time, couldnt get it moved
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...twork-1613261/
there's a "rep"

Anyone with anything else to add? It's weird, i tried it at different limits and under 80nl as i said previously, it seems legit although the RNG is rigged in some way, action flops(theres someone with quads/straightflush every 100 hands or less, every 3-4 hand theres a pot with nut straight+trips+flush) makes it impossible to do anything but pay rake and trade stacks/breakeven with completly nuts fish.

I had a few guys try and run rolls at lower limits and it worked well though.. No idea what to think of it.
I played 15k-20k~ hands of 80+, im wondering if anyone actually won at those limits.

Once again, yes, you are wrong. It's not a matter of perspective, something is either random or it isn't and once you start replacing randomness with predetermined outcomes, surprise! It's no longer random. Cool, notice that I never said anything like that and you're trying to strawman me. I really thought a simple example would work but you're pretty dedicated to your whole "Sure it'd be undetectable if I just keep it undetectable" thing, so whatever.

Sure of course they do but I am not silly enough to completely dismiss the chance of "rigged" action hands also.


As I already pointed out. It would be hard to detect due to the same reason most give riggies of being wrong. Variance .. .. It wouldn't be hard to "hide" the action hands within variance. If done correctly it will never be detected just like if a super user wasn't so greedy they could go on forever fleecing everyone.


Someone would need to have a mountain of proof of a rig before most poker players would consider a rig. Most just keep screaming .... Variance .... Sample Size. ... in reality the very reason yous are giving to the riggies as evidence of everything being on the level could be were the rig is hidden.

The time the hand hits is random. The players at the table are random. If the player decides to play the hand or not is random. How the player decides to play it is random.

Random is Random. Just because the hand is already set to create action. It doesn't mean it isn't random.

Lets take another form of gambling since you like using analogies.

Slot machines. They are predetermined to Make XXX amount of money and payout XX amount of money. Do you consider them random ? How many random times was the bottom pressed to spin that slot before you got there. How long ago did the jackpot last hit. How much has this machine made since then. The game itself is rigged but yet is still random.



That was my main point when I entered the thread. The rest is just filler debate.

Again I am not saying there is a rig but to completely dismiss it is silly.



It is not my fault you used a poor example to prove your point. If you don't abuse a scam then the likely hood of getting caught can be next to 0 % in certain circumstances.

Absolutely wrong. Slot machine payouts come at exactly the expected random frequencies based on the design of the wheels in the particular machine, which are set up to achieve particular payout rates using totally random spins. Modern "virtual" wheels are programmed to have a certain number of cherries on that wheel, etc, just like mechanical ones actually had that many printed on them. But then they come up absolutely randomly (by LAW, everywhere).

If I create a game using a deck of cards, and I pay out every time an Ace is dealt, fair odds would be to pay you 12:1. But I set the rules to payout slightly less so I make money. I don't rig the deal, I just control the rules. Same thing in slot machines.

If a slots wheel has 100 symbols and 4 of them are cherries, that wheel will show cherries 4/100 of the time. When designing a slot machine, you design the wheels to have the number of payable symbols you desire, and then random spins take it from there. There is absolutely nothing rigged or non-random about how they work. But I set the payout rules to be something less than that, just like my cards example. That's how I make money, not by rigging the machine.

You seem to misunderstand a lot of things.

My reaction to ACR wasn't simply in response to running bad. I, like everyone, have always ran bad at various times. This was more about the way in which I felt that run bad was happening as well as other factors like bots, style of play/behavior from certain players, etc.

I'm not one of those guys that claims everywhere he loses is rigged. Refer to the first sentence of my initial post

Do you have a big enough database stored ? If you do, I'm guessing you should post in the probability forum. Bots are a different issue. Heard some people complaining about russian bots on ACR.

I guess I was miss informed on how Slots work. I never actually looked into it.

Here is a straight forward explanation of slots if anyone is interested.
http://www.vegasslotsonline.com/work/

All this is side discussion anyways. The rig can be real and it can be hidden in variance. Action hands do not cost the site money it is the very thing that keeps the poker sites going.

Incorrect

Nah not much of a database stored, was only there for around 3 months.

It's ok... I'm just gonna take my tinfoil hat over to Carbon . I like their software better anyway

Play where you feel comfortable is always correct, but consider the experience of this riggie with regard to that network...


Everything is Rigged Except Merge Network Riggie

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=63035
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=63038

After Playing there 2 Months Merge is Becoming Rigged (same riggie):

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=63919

After Playing there 4 Months Merge is Totally Rigged (same riggie):

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=64464



All the best.

Please, give me an example on how the rig can be hidden in variance.

A lot of people have databases that don't show anomalies that suggests rig. Far from it. It actually indicates that everything is in order.

If action flops/hands/turns/rivers hit too often, don't you think that would lead up to an easy discovery ? Having flushes hit too often ? Having straights hit too often ? That would be discovered in a second.

If you somehow imply that they even it out somehow, please do explain how.

And how do the action hands keep the sites going?

I never said they hit too often. I said they are ( or can be ) hidden in variance. There are many ways that it could be done. Although I never suggested it, even it out is certainly possible. They also could be throwing out such a small % of extra action hands it would be next to impossible to prove due to the sheer volume of hands that gets played.

Do you think it would be easy to pin point a Super User if they balanced out fleecing people and losing ? Essentially a Super User can go on forever and not get caught if they weren't too greedy. Same can be said for rigs. It is just silly to completely dismiss the possibility of a rig.

For the 10th time, this isn't how variance works. What benefit would this give them? They make an extra $3 every 10,000 hands or something and in the process ensure that one of their players loses 100bbs to another player?

This is why the idea of sites rigging for more action hands is dumb, because their maximum benefit is $3, and they're risking their multi-million (at least) dollar business for it. I do, because some 2+2ers tested that exact idea 7 years ago when people suspected Cake Poker of having superusers. They even made their pretend superusers have pretty innocuous stats and make intentionally bad calls on the river from time to time. No ****, which is why literally no one ever has. Just because we point out that your hand wavy explanation of "they can hide it in the variance!" isn't true doesn't mean we're dismissing the possibility of any rig.

I know how variance works.... and yes a rig could be set up to work within it. Keeping hand percentages at normal rates. Because you know ... if something looks a little funny all you non riggies can explain it by saying variance and using its close friend sample size as explanations.

So what if a player loses 100bb.... It happens all the time. It benefits the site plenty. The person who won the 100BB is going to continue to play. Creating more rake. The person that lost likely rebuys / makes another deposit. Which brings more money on the site. Lots of benefits.


LOL at maximum $3

Not all poker sites are multi-million ( or more ) companies. If I was forced to put my life savings on the line in choosing ....... There is a rigged poker site out their somewhere vs No rig ..... I choose the first without hesitation.

There been some shady poker sites and owners as proven in the past. If Super users / site owners Running away with players money happen. Why wouldn't a site owner / partner rig the deal ? The answer is simple ..... They would.

No-one ever has what ..... said there is no rig ? It has been said plenty of times.

Riggies get laughed at or poked fun at all the time. Which I find more amusing then claims made by the riggies themselves.

This isn't a thing, no matter how many times you say it like it is.
I know you're not a riggie but this is such classic riggie logic. "Oh, if people lose on a site because it's rigged against them they'll just keep redepositing because...reasons" Do you know what rake is and how it works? Most sites cap it at $3 so their maximum profit off of a rigged hand would be... Well no, the answer is simpler: because it's easier to just steal the ****ing money. Rigging is complicated and takes a huge conspiracy to pull off, stealing the money just requires making some bank wires and flying off to wherever.

You basically just said "If people are willing to rob banks, why wouldn't they just hack the software to steal a few cents from every individual account?" Cool, feel free to quote even one of those posts. I'll wait.

I will avoid the first part of your post for the purpose of not having to go in circles.

I never claimed a rig is against any specific person. There are many forms of rigs. The one you are currently mentioning wasn't the one I was discussing.

As for Riggie logic ....

I answered your question of how a player losing 100BB benefits a poker site. To answer you next question as to why People will redeposit .... because that is what gamblers do. They gamble. Some redeposit because they don't care about that cooler. Poker is a hobby to them and fully realize they likely are going to lose. Others redeposit chasing the dream of "making it". Others out of Anger .... so many reasons.

I been coolered last night for well over 1 grand running into quads multiple times and a straight flush. Guess what ... I continued to play and will make another deposit on that same site if needed in the future.


Sure do know how rake works. Maximum $3 per hand is not what you said. Do you realize how many hands of online poker get played in a day. $3 per hand every XXXX amount of hands would add up to a fortune.

Sure it is easier to steal the money but like the old saying goes ... you can shear a sheep many times but skin it only once. Why make out with one junk of money when you can make out with multiple junks. IF You steal everyones money that is more risky then rigging the deal. You 100 % get caught in one way or another when you just snatch everyones money and run. You can get away with rigging the deal and not being known as scum.


That is not what I said at all. I said if poker site owners are willing to steal total balances and close shop why wouldn't one be willing to rig a deal ? The answer is ..... they would.

Come on .. I can't take you seriously if you honestly believe no-one made the claim of .... there is no rig.


Edit: On a side not .. everytime I post in this thread I get redirected to page 3xxx after entering my post.

I'm on page 828. All seems good to me.

The poker site benefits by them losing it slowly, and the site does not benefit when a player loses it all in one big hand.

And I also have never seen anyone say in this thread that there is no rig.

But I've also not seen any evidence yet that there is one, or even reason to be suspicious, in 82,000 posts. Poker is such a high variance game with relatively small skill edges, that sites have no reason to juice it. The game design takes care of that just fine.

This is the exact page it brings me to

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...l#post52021346

Likely something to do with a setting on my end.

A Poker site would benefit from both. I already listed the benefits of someone being stacked for 100 BBs.


I haven't followed this thread but riggie threads and discussions are all the same regardless of where they take place. I would be absolutely shocked if no one has ever said something along the lines of ..... there is no rig in this thread.

So you weren't discussing action hands? Let me go ahead and try to insert what I said along with what you said that I was replying to:
What I was going for with this quote is the idea that they rig 1 in 10,000 hands, and make themselves an extra $3 by doing that. I chose 1 in 10,000 because you said "such a small % of extra hands" and I figured we could both agree that 0.01% would be a small percentage. I do honestly believe that, so please, quote one of the "plenty of times" it's been posted. It should be trivially simple. ...and yet you said with certainty it had been said "plenty of times". Hmmm.

Yes I was discussing action hands .. I was not discussing action hands pin pointing a specific player.


You said both in the same response. $3 maximum and $3 per 10,000 hands. I went back re-read and wanted to edit my post, it was too late to do so but my point still stands. How many hands get dealt in an hour / a day / a month. $3 extra per XXXX amount of hands will add up to a fortune.


I stated that it been said plenty of times with certainty because I wasn't only reference this thread but in general. Everyone who has been around poker for any amount of time has ran into the .. its rigged discussion.

I am going to have to skim a little of the thread because I am curious to see if it is possible to have a thread of this size discussing a rig and no-one claim in one form or another ... that it is not rigged.

When did I suggest anything about pin pointing anyone? Stars deals roughly a million hands per day, so if they rigged it to max out rake once every 1,000 or so hands they'd make an extra $3,000 per day. Not really a fortune to make an extra ~$1 million per year when you're a ~$3.2 billion company. Fair enough. *tips hat*

Understand that riggies talk in extremes, even in the way they say a rig is "possible." Not a single riggie has yet proven a single riggie theory, but the common belief is essentially "anything is possible."

Yeah, sure, I guess, but usually things also have to make sense, so a site paying programmers a lot of money to develop a rig that makes them no money, yet risks

1) Being caught through statistical analysis
2) Being caught through the programmers telling

makes no sense but in the riggie universe these programmers never speak, even those who no longer program that worked for sites that shut down years ago. As well, riggies such as yourself commonly use the following "logic" stream

Invisible people may be possible, the proof is that they cannot be seen and nobody has seen one. That's basically your "hidden in variance" argument, when that is not how statistics (or human nature - ie all these secretive programmers) work. Riggies vastly underestimate the power of statistical analysis, because they look at it from their own very limited abilities.

You can look through the thread but you will not find a shill who flat out said a rig is impossible, because you can have your cousin Vito create a site that programs every hand to be AA, and thus technically a site is "rigged." However to date not a single riggie theory about a rigged RnG has been proven about an established site, and and you have not presented anything knew to that as even the expression "hidden in variance" has been used before by other riggies who lacked understanding in that area. Here are quotes from some of the company you keep.




All the best.