We are still waiting to see some good variance i am barely playing on the site anymore. A friend asked why i said ok all play heads up sng all lost 8 out of 10 coin flips or ahead situations to who ever i play. First game i lost 4 coin flips every time dwindle the chips they win. 2 game had guy beat many times but he kept rivering sucking out he ends up winning. My friend said thats poker. I said not for the last 3 months. What i am seeing on these sites is not poker. When we don't get good variance at all for months somethings wrong. You can't only get bad variance in poker and thats what i seen online not just last few months but for years losing more coin flips then winning by huge margin. Its not even close. The questin is why are we not getting any good variance on onliner poker? maybe 1 day out of the 4 months we play that doesn't sound right. This not just me but i am the 7th winning reg to quit playing heads up in merge over the last month. the site should be alarmed by that they are losing a ton of profit and continue to only show bad variance to the heads up regs. they are removing variance i think in a week so all be gone anyways. but this is a heads up for anyone who wants to play on merge i ony experienced bad variance with very little good variance against every single opponent i played. Gl with the site but all is ee is nut hands for oponents. Its very fishy i cashed out most of my money.

You just posted like this exact thread a few days ago. Why feel the need to post another?

Your so called proof appears to be nothing more than smokescreen and I suspect you're bright enough to realize that.

Assume A has $1000 (ignore bankroll management arguments) on account and B is taking his/her occasional (or first) shot with a $50 deposit.

Assume an all-in ($100) scenario maxing the rake at $5 where player A (overpair) has trapped B (underpair) (alternate scenario – player A flopped the nutz and managed to get player B all-in with one pair, no draw).

Pokersite causes player B to catch one of her/his two outs (or runner runner to chop), and player B keeps playing and contribute to rake. However, if B loses his/her $50 deposit s/he may not be able to redeposit for some period of time or may just chose to leave (until s/he can afford another desposit).

Believing s/he is +EV, Player A reloads and also continues to contribute to the rake, only to repeat the scenario over and over again. Instead of busting fish after fish, player A loses far more often than s/he should and the money stays in play on Pokersite to be raked over and over again. Any edge player A may have is lost to player(s) B and rake. Player A, being competent, may even hoover around break even despite endless bad beats but continues to contribute to the rake.

Is this not an optimal day for Rig Master?

and assume Pokersite tracks the tendencies of both Player A and B to keep playing (or not) depending on results.

so you believe the poker sites do this for their millions of players constantly in basically infinite number of combinations at the tables?

How often to they adjust their switches for players (as they join new tables in new player mixes). How many people are needed to do this at all times (even at the freeroll and nano stakes riggies play).

I know you will never directly answer those questions, riggies are not into direct answers, but you genuinely believe your theory is even a practical rig in the real world (as in sites would not use a simpler one that actually generated money)?

All the best.

to say that their is not a chance of it being rigged, is even more absurd, because there is always a chance even if it is less than 1%, who knows what kind of shady stuff is going to slowly take your bankroll.... just saying the people who absolutely believe it's not rigged or that every site is legit are just as far off the deep end as thoose who claim EVERY site is rigged.... just a thought..


can we say for certain... a site is rigged or not... the answer is NO.

For my own curiosity, what type of things do Mods actual moderate here? Not questioning the TOS or whatever at 2+2, just wondering is trolling, personal attacks and all around pointless immature statements acceptable site wide.

Why is that? I would think that fact prevents a more productive discussion on this topic. Of the massive amount of posts in this thread, a figure a large percentage is stuff that probably wouldn't be allowed in more moderated threads on this site. I wonder how many posters that might have insightful things to say on this topic, on both sides, that don't bother because of some of the seeming nonsense that is allowed to go on. Whether online poker is actually "rigged" or not is besides the point to posters being allowed to freely add nothing in relation to the topic of discussion and seemingly attempt to discourage others from doing so, on either side.

If all this is better discussed in a pm, just let me know, I am just surprised to see a site like 2+2 with so many helpful threads and discussions going on, let this one go on in the manner it has.

So I understand you clearly, it's better to allow posters to personally attack others, post off topic nonsense, like the post above yours, etc, because civility hasn't changed any "riggies" minds, opposed to enforcing all posters to just not post in this thread if they can't post maturely? So basically "riggies"are asking for it or have it coming because they won't accept online pokers is not rigged or at least stop posting about?

Also a productive discussion to me is just allowing people to post their POV on the topic and the POV of others, without it being allowed to regress it to personal attacks, trolling, etc. Evidently that's not the case at 2+2, at least in this thread. Thanks for the responses.

According to your theory literally everything in life is 50/50 as it could be possible, or it may not be possible. Some people believe they can walk through walls. You believe them? If not, can you prove they cannot walk through walls, after all it may be possible.

After all these years no site has had a proven rigged RnG that was used by companies for evil purposes (I imagine riggies will swarm with the Planet Poker example regardless). After all these years not a single insider has come out about a rigged RnG (not counting people who pretend they worked for sites with no backup). After all these years riggies keep seeing patterns (many times which contradict each other) and not a single one has been able to capitalize on these super powers to make a fortune.

This is not a binary situation of "is it possible or not?" as much as riggies want to characterize it as such. This is a fun debate at times, and paranoid guys like you will always have your paranoid beliefs, but my advice to you and all riggies remains the same.

Quit all forms of online poker, and never play again.

All the best.

It kind of seems like "The Bigfoot Theories"
Only the bigfoot hardcores have seen him,but no pics or video.
We just have to take their words for it

Oh wow, they are working on a testable theory. This should be good.

Agreed- can you find anyone in this thread who has argued otherwise?

You put a lot of effort into bringing the debate back around to vague statements about why you believe it unlikely that Pokersite would risk rigging and/or how hard that might be to accomplish. We already know that Pokersite has broken laws in several jurisdictions knowing that no authority has the ability to shut them down. So long as it is profitable to cheat and steal, they will contuinue to do so. Need I remind you that the former FT actually stole and spent our money in advance, knowing that they would eventually make it look like we legitimately lost it to their rake.

I am not a computer programmer but I doubt it would be very hard to rig the game as I suggest. We know that Pokersite tracks and profiles it's members in an effort to detect collusion (which is a worthy pursuit insofar as collusion takes control and revenue away from Pokersite). We players also have access to nearly similar means to profile ourselves and opponents and formulate appropriate strategy and counter-measures - but a multi-billion dollar corporation wouldn't bother or know how...? Really!?

Is it so implausible that Pokersite might notice a competent player who is able to exploit and bust fish and take counter-measures to turn the odds against that player by dealing abnormal bad beats? Today's computers are capable of far more than that, so if you're trying to convince anyone it's not likely or possible....

I know I am not the only one who has noticed unusual post all-in delays followed by miracle cards roll favouring (often bizzare) shoves and calls. By my read, Pokersite is flipping through the deck to find the cards it wants to deal to bust me - not always, but often enough that I am not allowed to bust the fish as I otherwise should. The delay is not more than second but it is perceptible and the result is predictable.

Let me try a basic example. Suppose Pokersite notices my ability to bust fish and simply flips a switch, enables a sub-routine, or whatever, telling the dealer/server to watch for big hands and deal me bad beats 70% of the time. I don't lose all of those big hands, but I lose enough to keep me from exploiting as many fish as I can. Would this not explain the phenomena we riggies are seeing? It would look like the fish/newbies are favored, but in truth it's competent players being limited for Pokersites advantage.

Does that directly answer you questions without belittling or insulting you? i welcome your challenges and we'll see where the debate leads but I'll do whay I can to keep you from running afoul of the central debate.

Yea, these riggies are idiots. They remind me of the people that I saw commenting under a Lance Armstrong youtube video years ago. They kept going on and on about how Lance Armstrong cheated by taking performance enhancing drugs in order to win the Tour de France. I ,of course, reminded them that Lance has passed hundreds of drugs tests during his career and that it would be impossible to keep so many people who have been involved to remain quiet. And of course they would bring up the whistle-blower people, but I told them that these people were just jealous of Lance's winning abilities and that they should be regarded a irrelevant or crazy.

Yep, these people are a lot like the riggies.

They rationalize that "if there is a chance" that means it essentially is an equal chance.

You are into rational thought Arouet, what is your opinion of those who use "anything is possible" to support a premise that to date has no foundation in any kind of facts.

Telling them "nobody is saying it is impossible" essentially acknowledging their belief structure, which is an impractical one given that in theory anything is "possible."


I get riggies and understand where their paranoia and general lack of awareness takes them, but I admit I do get puzzled at times with how some of you shills try to reason with them.

I assure you I am not suggesting any method of reasoning will do much in nearly all the cases, but how about this - you say "it is possible" to counter their silly "prove it is not possible" thing, so what exact percentage would you give it being possible?


Not really - Lance got caught and it was proven. No poker room has been caught yet with a rigged RNG. Amusing attempt at an anaology, but kind of fails in that regard. People believe all sorts of things, some believe the president is a Lizard Person.

Weren't you the one with high stakes friends that was going to blow the lid off everything with some amazing study? How many years has that been in progress with no results? Also, how is that freeroll career going?

Ask computer programmers and see what they say. When they tell you it is not only impossible, but utterly insane will that change your beliefs at all? Of course not, and you will never ask any programmers anyway. Also remember every single programmer needs to make a blood oath to keep the secret until their death according to your beliefs.

Poker sites deal thousands of hands every second. Poker sites are not sentient beings.

Your riggie theory sucks, use better ones, and be sure to quit all forms of online poker.

All the best.

Bacardi, you are absolutely right. The beats are all to predictable and all too frequent. They often happen at the most critical moments in tournaments and the game just seems unwinnable. The deal doesn't represent a real deal of cards. Hold'em is a game of domination, and when one gets all in with a dominating hand and needs to get lucky to win, something is definitely off. Online wasn't always like this. As I've said before, I think something changed around the year 2007.

Oh you're right. He did get caught years ago and nothing was done. It was kept pretty quiet. Not even all of the media and investigative journalism from all over the world could get to the bottom of what the powers that be didn't want out. Thanks for backing up my point.

Right. So you're praising the capabilities of computers to rig the games in a way which is undetectable by advanced statistical analysis and in the very next paragraph pointing out that they can't do it without a noticable delay? Really?

So your hand histories show all this right? How far under EV are you running all in against 83 and 72?

If your point was Lance Armstrong cheated then ok, Lance Armstrong cheated.

That has nothing to do with the online poker industry.

Clinton cheated on his wife - is that somehow related to online poker RNG in your mind?


I take it your freeroll career did not end well. Shame your pretend friends were not there to help you, but at least you have more time to never finish that study you promised!

All the best.

Monteroy, go fk yourself. I used to play for very high stakes. That is a fact. The fact that you are so hung up on it is sad. The point is that some people are suspicious of the supposed "truth" or narrative that is playing out in given areas of their lives and some are blindly trusting. I think a lot of the people that blindly trust the poker industry or what the news media says etc. are also the people that, centuries ago, probably would have been hiking in the woods and not care to check for predators in the woods sneaking up behind them, resulting in their death. Their is often no immediate penalty in today's world for carelessness, but prudence should pay off in the long run. I don't want online poker to rigged. I try to convince myself all the time that it is not. But I have seen too much to believe it is completely fair. Sometimes I am 70/30 on it being fair. Sometimes 30/70. The point is I don't know and there really is no way of knowing. One must remain suspicious though. Many new sites don't say one thing regarding the fairness of the deal. How can someone not be suspicious of this?? I can't speak for Pokerstars, as I've not played there in years, but until you have played on my site on my account, you may have no idea what I am talking about. A lot of you do know what I am talking about, though.

You saying "it is a fact" does not make it a fact.

Riggies blindly trust every other riggie, so I agree many people are very naive in this world.

Do you believe the government version of 9/11 is correct? Probably not, but the guy ranting on youtube you will believe without question and mock those who do not have faith.

This is how life donks like you operate every single day.


Blindly trust the industry? Seriously, what narcotics are you on? The industry is like any other industry, filled with problems and people who do bad things.

Many sites have outright stolen money from players. People collude. People use bots.

A ton of issues exist in this industry that are important to fight, but guys like you ignore all of those and instead worry about why you were 2 outed in a $1 tournament.

Guys like you actually distract from the real problems in this industry that do exist.




This is a fight with yourself you cannot win because your very nature is paranoid and you fill your head with all sorts of conspiracies to make sense of the world.

Just make sure you never play online poker again.




I know you are going to be annoyed at yourself later for beaking your posting character and having your real frustration come through, but in the end if you do not trust a company, any company then do not do business with them.

It really is that simple.

Have fun in the thread, but enough with the Lance Armstring thing - that is a really weak argument (ie: if some human somewhere cheated and people said he didnt that proves poker sites cheat) even for a riggie, and you sound like you have a couple more brain cells than most riggies.

Sorry your poker career busted (which is clearly the source of your anger), but in the end that is on you.

All the best.

This is exactly the mindset that causes the problem. Yes, you do need to get lucky.


Can I ask all of the die-hard riggies that play cash games if they have invesigated all in equity insurance software like "Insuredplay" which I noticed was advertising here? How does that fit in with your riggie beliefs?

It is the truth. Until you can prove me wrong, which you can't, then please shut up regarding this issue. I play on CPN right now. The site is a nightmare. It is full of glitches and has no players above .5-1 1-2. The mtt payouts are weak. There is no real opportunity to take a consistent flow of money from the site. Do I play low stakes on the site? Sometimes. I recently won a few low stakes MTT ($5-$10) while grinding cash games and had a bank roll of over $1,000. So I started playing the higher stakes tournys. $110, 50, 30, 30, 70, 20, 50, 110 ... back to back to back to back. Amazingly I don't make money in any of them and yes, my bank roll is back to under $50 on the site. This is a repeating cycle. Yes, it could be bad bankroll management, but no, I do not care about grinding $50 a day.

That looks great! Is that real? They don't support cake. Also, I see most problems in the tournaments, not cash games.

Because the emotional impact of getting knocked out with the better hand after playing for hours is so much greater, making you disregard the number of individual lucky events and cumulative luck up to that point.

Or because they have a different RNG for tournaments, right?

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...167_D66D562025

Look at this. Tell me that it normal and that the hand didn't have a predetermined outcome before it played out.

http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hand...423_4391F52F63

When they want you out of a tournament and back at the tables generating rake they will do something similar too this too get you all in and out of tournament

http://www.boomplayer.com/poker-hand...391_266FE48615

It is absolutely real, and you will always find companies willing to make a profit on other people's fears (players pay a premium for the "insurance").

The irony is of course if any site put something like this in that riggies would think it was part of the conspiracy, even though the biggest problem with it would be the fact that it is basically another rake grab.

Good on that company for figuring out a way to get people to pay extra rake to them due to their fears of being unlucky.



Sorry Stars went to all that trouble to target you in a 50 cent tournament. They are taking your 5 cents in rake and rubbing 2 cents on each tittie and giving one to the programmer to keep his mouth shut on the crime.

Keep in mind though that most riggies believe the rig is in favor of big stacks (and you lost as the big stack), so the best part is even if you won the hand it also would prove it is rigged!

If it makes you feel any better - Lance Armstrong lied as well.

All the best.