Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet
1. So dig up some of the posts from the stats guys and tell us where you disagree with their methodology.
2. How many poker players want all of their hands just out there for anyone to analyse?
but none of this really matters, since we do have enough info to draw reliable conclusions. You can say its suspicious all you want, and may say that its reason enough not to trust them in general, but you can't draw a specific conclusion on rigging based on them not providing what you asked for. Even with Pitbull, while it seems very likely that SOMETHING shady was going on, we can't conclude exactly what shady thing was going on because they opted to close shop rather than give players their hand histories.
to repeat: they decided to close up shop rather than give players their handhistories. Do you think that maybe they were afraid of what would be found out if they did give out the histories? Why do you think they might have been afraid of that?
1. No I couldn't be bothered, it's too time consuming and I have always said people should play online and make up their own mind, preferably helped by opinions and stats of players they trust, rather than listen to arguments of people who seem to argue one way or another as if their life or livelihood depends upon it. Personally I'd rather spend time on things that mean a lot to me. Partner, relations, health, money, poker, having an enjoyable life. I look at this thread as an entertainment and occasionally contribute, but that's as far as it goes. Others can do the work.
2. Not many, although some could benefit from others seeing what they are doing, because good players change and adapt their game continually. My suggestion would be for all hands including hole cards with flops being avaialble for an independent watchdog to evaluate. It would be similar to medical records, which are available only to those in the profession. So a professional government adjudicator would be able to analyse them.
What I would like to see available to all is every hand that is played and can be observed, to be recorded and open for everyone. So for instance when a hand is played to a showdown, each hand that is at the showdown is able to be observed, however those that are folded are not. All the viewable cards at showdown should be available across the board. Once the hands are played, those cards that are able to be seen at showdown should be available for everyone to see. As it is nothing can be proved one way or another, despite claims to the contrary.
Wiki said
"We are 'towing' our own line.
We are as anxious as anyone to expose real shenanigans.
It's just that we need some Evidence before we can start to do anything.
It's rather like someone going to the police and saying they think someone is a serial killer with absolutely no evidence, just a vague feeling that there aren't as many people around as they think there should be."
This is why you have circumstantial evidence. I am sure some can see why sites refuse to allow players to access across the board data as suspicious, along with the way regular contributors here tow the line. It is circumstantial evidence, and innocent people have been found guilty using this, and guilty people have been found guilty using this, (or innocent found innocent and guilty innocent). That does not make it true or false, it just looks suspicious.
This has been an enjoyable discussion, and in closing I hope online poker becomes safer and more transparent. The Full Tilt situation looks much better now. I was one of those who said I believed it would be bought by someone because there is so much money to be made, and that some or all of the money would be eventually paid back. Online poker has been like the Wild West for too long. Yes it looks fun on tv, but the reality is it was dirty, lawless, and dangerous.