Hi,

I am playing spin and goes for 5 years, most of this time on PokerStars under "piter2105". Never had any problems there or on Partypoker.

Today I got banned on GGpoker, this is what they wrote in email


It started with a block 14th June, 12 days ago:


I sent all documents, then they asked for more verification, and asked question about my account on other skin, but nothing about things, that they accusse me for. They didn't ask for any liveplay, or any other thing that could prove my innocence. Just ban straight away.

I was playing $20 and $50 spin and go games there, from begining of them, so 28th february 2020. Together with me, they banned couple other players, not sure how many exactly, but we all recieved the same message. I'm wasn't really connected with these players, in fact I knew only one of them before this bans. I'm not part of any stable.

I definietly didn't use any Artificial Intelligence (I thought it doesnt exist yet, lol) or any External Assistance Programs. All I used was HU Nash Chart, which I think every player on this stakes knows.
I'm not sure how can I prove my innocence here, so if anyone has any idea hit me up.

What I want to achieve at this point is definietly getting my money back and also warn other, especially winning players, before depositing there.
It's really ridiculous that room which is gonna host WSOP online this year is scamming players like that.

Did you use the nash hand chart while playing? According to their rules that would be illegal and I guess thats why you have been banned maybe?

https://www.holdemresources.net/hune - that's how this chart looks. As far as I know it's illegall on PokerStars for few months, but not on GGpoker. Also, I don't think that comes into 'USE of ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE' or 'EXTERNAL ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS'.

That is obvious external assistance. Not sure how they detected it, I'm curious to know.

GG clearly states their goal is rec friendly. They really have two security issues they are steadfast about, bumhunting and use of outside help. I've received memos maybe monthly reminding me of this and to always be clear with players their views on it.

They always send out a warning letter. That is the time to get the details from them. My experience is they have zero tolerance after the 1st letter goes out.

Your best bet might be to write the business department and ask them to clarify or give you the opportunity to live stream to their security dept in hopes of getting your account back.

Well, I didn't get any warning letter. Also, I am pretty sure most of spin and go regs use this chart and imo it's easy to remember, I think 99% of my decision would be same if I wouldn't look at it, as I memorized most of it after long time playing. It was just a habbit to have it open.

Still, it's my fault if I had it open, but had no idea that this simple chart could be prohibited, and I don't think it's a crime that should result with confiscated funds without any warning.

Also, I don't think thats the reason, as it's nowhere close to use of Artificial Intelligence which they stated in e-mail. I think they didn't detected it. I think main reason for ban was just being a winning player, as in many other cases.

Thanks.

Also, one thing I forgot to mention. When I got blocked, 14th June, I was in the middle of GGMasters tournament, and I was on paid place in leaderboard (it was Sunday evening, so few hours before leaderboard finish). When they blocked me I obviously couldn't finish tournament and I disappeared from leaderboard. In my opinion it was either lack of competence from them (if I end up clean they will loose $ to compensate me, although they could just freeze my withdrawals and block me from registering to new tournaments, while letting me finish this) or they just straight away knew that I will be banned, and this whole 12-day investigation was just completely fake, to make it look like they really checking something. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have any actual poker players in this security team, which could verify if player is cheater or not.

It is clear that whoever commits fraud here is the GG itself. It confiscates their accounts from winning players for their own profit. They used to do that, it's not a new thing.

The email literally states that using hand charts could be a reason for the ban and then you admitted to using hand charts. That's the clear reason for the ban.

if we start from this, in this case the money must be confiscated from all regulars because all of them use nash

How could GGPoker even detect if you use a Nash push/fold chart? Seems like an absurd rule that isn't at all enforceable.

Well, if you read their mail carefully, you will see something else:
They specified that it's not about charts.

Also, how could they possibly detect it, as I have them on my wallpaper (for practical reasons, never thought about hiding it, because I would never imagine it's prohibited there)
Even if that would be becouse of HU charts (which is isn't, 99,9% sure) I should clearly have a chance to proove my innocence (record a liveplay with everything visible to see if my decisions are same).

I would assume most poker apps scan and log your apps/processes and services, so if someone is opening chart on a website its kinda easy to find task name in logs


I would assume that most poker apps are capable to make a simple print screen of your desktop and upload these at slow rate to their servers so you dont experience lag

So sadly you need to print this image with advanced strategy AI and pin it above your screen or open it on other computer.



But I dont think it matters, since they dont need to provide any evidence and dont let anyone defend themselves (no video recording option), they can do it to whoever they want to kick from their site (winning grinders)

Well they banned a few in this case. Simply saying "well everyone does it" isn't a reason to say you can't be banned for it. Sucks for OP for sure but the reality is he was breaking a rule, whether he realized it or not. He clearly wasn't being malicious but that's not a prerequisite.

Guess it comes down to what you were actually using. If you just had these charts pasted into Excel then I don't know how they would detect it. If you had HRC open while you were playing then that would definitely fall under external assistance.

It is not that hard to detect.
They could filter your hand history against the nash push fold chart and count how many mistakes you made.

They can then have a population tendency graphed and those who use charts will stand out.

If you know your stuff but don’t recite the chart you tend to make mistakes on marginal hands.

I don’t even have to use this board because I have 95% of it in my head. But then I am already a user. Anyway, I think they use spyware to detect anything.

Lol, definitely didn't had hrc or any other tools open. Spins are pretty fast game, and I don't think there would be enough time to cheat like that.
Btw ggpoker officials always assured on discord, that if you use something prohibited you will get warning first, as they don't have any specified list with prohibited programs.

I know most of Nash without looking, and I definitely play like that most of the time. Even if what you saying would be the case, player should have a chance to prove himself by recording liveplay or whatever. And I believe warning should be first, as definitely most of spin players uses it, unaware that it's forbidden.

But please read mail they sent me once again. It's clearly specified that it's not about charts.

That isn't really conclusive proof of anything. The chart has been out for so many years, regs who have played tens of thousands of games probably have it almost 100% memorized by now.

Furthermore, it would be very strange for any human player to rigidly stick to Nash without ever deviating as against fish who e.g. call too tight they would probably want to open up their shoving range and play exploitative.

I am just pointing out it is detectable, not that it is solid proof or the site should ban you for this.

What more solid proof is required when the email specially mentioned hand chart and you know you are using one? Even Stars don’t provide proof when banning people.

Most likely this is just an excuse to ban winning players but that’s not my point.

PokerStars is the worst company in the world. Seriously.

Did they admit here, that I am innocent and they just robbed my money? lol

They said you can return without your money. I would probably be afraid to play there if they did it once, they will do it again.

how much did they stole?

Dude SUE them!!! or at least do a YT video and point out how they stole you!

Just for curios, how much you win spins-all promo and rb included.

Just spin total rb could be over 100%, and lots of guys are tempting to create some "teams"
And GG is very sensitive about that and can ban very easly

Actually i dont know why they promote spins so much. In on hand they promote to get players in. But other hand they have to ban lots of people for winning too much...discusting

And for HU charts. I am sure that 99% regulars have charts somewhere on desktop.
I am MTT player and even 10-palyers game push/fold ranges become quite standard.

First of all, I really doubt this is because of the HUNE charts and I suspect there is something else at play.

But if it was about that, then that's borderline ******ed. I have literally memorized this complete chart, it's just basic knowledge I have now. It's not that hard to do, either. Would I be banned now for.. knowing numbers?

How do you know same players who got banned? I played as well some time gg spins, and i didnt know other regulars. I think there are chance, that poster wont say every detail.
Mayby some teamwork was caught and now just tries to get some money back.