This is exactly right. We have to base our judgements on what is presented in the OP. Based on what it says, the American player is almost certainly angle shooting. He tried to take advantage of the language barrier and trick his opponent into thinking he had folded.

If I'm the floor, I interpret his pause and then stressing the word "fold" as a fold especially considering that it caused action behind.

You're all nuts. You want to string up every angle shooter and beat em to death so bad that you miss the obvious. Shooting an angle or not, the truth here is that there is a language barrier and the chinese guy needed his neighbor to translate what the american said in his first statement of "will u show if i fold?". Don't you think he would need translation for the next statement? I mean, he did say "fold" in both statements right?

Considering the language barrier I think it would be best to wait until the other player actually physically mucks his cards before you do anything. This is the chinese players own fault for not waiting. This is the american's pot all day and I would give a warning to him about his possible angle and let him know that if anything like that happens again, I will consider it an angle shot and my decision won't go his way.

Seriously, if any of you were heads up in a pot with a guy that didn't speak your language at all, would you show him your hand if you thought he said the word "fold" in his language but didn't actually muck his cards? And then expect the floor to rule his hand dead?

dead hand, tie angler to tree outside, strip naked, spread honey on body

I'm not even sure which language they are supposed to be speaking.

But all you have done is demonstrated why i was wrong when I said the pause didn't matter. Your point makes it obvious that it was the pause which mattered. Because the first statement (translated) included the word fold. But the second statement didn't. It was the third statement .... the single word "Fold" which was understood.

I think this would be taken differently if in an English speaking country but it's taking place in a country where it's not expected for anyone to speak English. I think he should be made to fold. A warning is not sufficient as then his angle will have worked and he's won the pot.

He deliberately obfuscated his action, inducing an irreversible reaction behind him.

Rule 1. Dead hand. And goodbye for the night.

So you allow everyone a free angle shot each night? Guys like this don't wake up one day and decide, "Even though I haven't done this angle shot for years, I'm going to do this tonight." Unless you're recording every warning and checking it after you give a warning, you're giving everyone a free pass each night.

If someone in your room said something in Korean, then used the work "fold," are you going to accept, "Not my fault he didn't understand Korean, I clearly said I'm only folding if he shows."

As for the particular question, no. I'm very conservative and don't even believe the dealer until I see all hands mucked and the pot moving towards me. I put a $1 chip on my cards and push them only after the pot is mine. However, not trusting anyone has been breed into me and not everyone is the same way. My wife reminds me that such a level of distrust isn't normal. Normal people deserve a little more protection.

Wow, this thread, starting with the title, is a great example of the value of precise language. When I read the title, I thought I was going to read a thread about a foreign speaking player who shot an angle. Even when I read the OP, I thought OP might really be saying that the Chinese player was trying to win the pot by claiming he thought the 1seat folded. Only once I read the responses, then did I get it. Still, then Rush keeps saying that the 1seat is trying to get the Chinese player to fold. No, he is trying to get him to expose his cards.

This process works best when we choose our words well; as for the topic, I think the 1seat chose his words, and his delivery, intentionally to induce the response he got. As such, if I'm the floor, I award the pot to the Chinese player.

What I would do isn't relevant, since a ruling should be based around the particulars of the people in the hand.

In any event, even if it was English, and I heard someone put fold in the middle of a sentence "I just can't fold here" or "I'm folding laundry" or something similar, I wouldn't assume they folded. But if they said "I love ham. FOLD." I would.

When the English speaker is clearly putting a pause in the middle of his phrase for no reason, and saying the magic phrase "fold" with more emphasis, it seems clear to me he's trying to trick the non-English speaker. It's no different than bump faking pitching your cards in, or moving a stack of chips an inch from a betting line, or what have you.


And I think the saddest part is that you think it's a "possible angle", and you're going to give him the benefit of the doubt once (or more). Does that mean everyone at the table also gets to "possible angle" this guy once (or more)? Or everyone at the table now knows the next time someone from a foreign country is at their table, they can use their "Benefit of the Doubt" angle card?

No


Did the english guy in OP say anything in a different language before he said "fold"? No.

Who are you to determine why he paused? Never heard someone pause in the middle of a sentence before? Half a second. Thats a very short pause.

So you are 100% sure this guy was trying an angle shot at this chinese guy? Cuz you better damn well be sure if you're going to kill his hand after he made a statement that did include the word "fold", but he never said he was folding.

I know he didn't say he is folding. I know he didn't fold. I know he still has his cards. I know that you shouldn't show your hand and expect that the hand is over until all other players have mucked their cards.

I will not kill this guys hand because his opponent thought he was folding. Not my problem, protect your hand, protect your money.

Rule 1 reigns here. This is an obvious angle, with the intent to announce a fold to the only remaining player, while trying to maintain plausible deniability by inserting the announcement into some random sentence.

Nope, buddy, that was a fold, and shame on you for trying to take advantage of someone like that. Take your bull**** elsewhere.

I agreed with everyone saying angle and then I said "I don't really want to fold" in a really long, drawn out way as if I'm thinking about something and talking to myself... now I'm not so sure.

Plausible deniability at work.

It really does seem like he was setting up an angle by making a thing out of asking if the guy will show. With the strangely spoken sentence on its own, maybe we're talking about an accident. Maybe. But with that setup, it just seems too blatant.

Wow nice angle to show his hand and claim he only understood fold.

Btw, translation is for written text. For speech, the word you want is 'interpret'.

Nit alert.

That's not even true. The worst kind of nit.

No problem with this.

But also even if this wasn't deliberate I would rule it a fold because it created an irreversible action behind.

There have been many other threads like this and the rulings are varied. But they can easily go either way. Angles are technically supported by the rules. Still the word "Fold" was uttered and that is often the deciding factor. Other players at the table will often say they heard some mumbling and then the word "Fold".

I was once playing in a 20/40 game and asked if 4 chips closely together was a raise. Two players folded behind me and the chips then got separated so I knew it was 2 calls. I then decided to call and was told I had to raise because i said the magic word "raise".

Never played in Korea but in a couple european countries. Everywhere I played, the standard poker terms of call, raise, fold, all-in were used and most places accept english as a second language at the table. Even in France

I would rule the hand dead if it was obvious to me he paused intentionally before saying "fold". Not sure what to do if I couldn't tell if it was intentional or not.