Player in seat 1 (American)
Player in seat 10 (Chinese, doesn't speak English, but knows English poker terms)

After the turn, Chinese player goes allin, American tanks for a bit, then leans forward over the table (since dealer is in between them) and asks him if he would show his cards if he folds. Another Chinese player translates for them and the player said he would show his cards. American immediately says "I don't really want to (pauses half a second) fold (saying fold with a little more emphasis)". Chinese player flips his cards over. American (after obviously seeing the cards and has the Chinese player beat) than says, Hey I'm calling not folding! Chinese player is upset saying in Mandarin that the American said Fold.

What do you think about this?

Sounds like an obvious angle to me.
I would mind a bit if he is held to a fold.

fixed?

But yeah, you nailed it.

Sounds like a pretty obvious angle. Seat 1 could/should easily be bound to a fold here.

Why is the dealer allowing a player in the hand to converse with another player in a foreign language, and then allowing this second player to act as an interpreter?

The dealer deserves a KITN.

Sent from my BNTV400 using 2+2 Forums

I'm in Korea. A lot of times most of the players don't speak English, makes for a very quiet table. Some of the dealers do also speak Japanese and Mandarin though.

Assuming fold was said how OP claims, I rule the Americans hand dead. Saying fold like that, and causing the player to reveal his hand, makes it a fold.

Yes, thank you.

Really in this case what difference does it make that he paused. The other guy's English is limited to poker terms. The only word he is going to understand there is "Fold" and this is true without the pause. So you would have likely seen the exact same scenario without the pause.

I think the American is a Class D DB. I hope he was held to the fold.

The floor has to step in and apply rule 1. As a clear and obvious angle, his hand is dead.

If this were a room in America, the dealer screwed up, and it is a nasty angle. Give villain the pot then beat him up and rob him in the parking lot.

In a Korean room, though, I don't really understand, I guess it would depend on house rules. Shouldn't the official game language be Korean? Maybe saying fold in English shouldn't really mean anything anyway.

House rules, of course.

That said if I'm the dealer, I just say to the floor, "All I heard was the player say 'fold'." Especially if I'm in a non-native English speaking country.

If the player explains his whole sentence then tell the floor.

"There may have been some mumbling before but I clearly heard "fold"."

Did the American player angleshoot? maybe. Does he deserve a KITN either way? probably.

That being said, it is the Chinese player's responsibility to protect his hand. Even if he agrees to show his hand if the other guy folds, he should wait until the guy actually mucks his cards or for the dealer to push him the pot. Lesson learned.

I must be missing something here.

Since when does "Will you show me your hand if I fold" a fold?

Granted, the Chinese player may have had a hard time at the table seeing that his understanding of the English language was limited to poker terminology, but the American player never asked the other Asian player to translate to the guy what he said or what he was inquiring about. But when the third party did take it upon himself to get involved (when he shouldn't have) the Chinese guy took that as a fold.

If I ask someone "Will you show me if I fold"? I'm pretty certain that the guy isn't going to show me until I actually do so and my hand is well mixed in with the muck.


That said, could he have possibly said the word "Fold" a little bit louder than "I don't really want to---"? Yes. Angle shot? Perhaps. I don't know. How would anyone know who wasn't there? But, I don't think you can do anything about it in terms of killing his hand.

Rush: I'm confused by your last paragraph, as you seem to jump from discussing "Will you show me your hand if I fold?" to "I don't really want to...FOLD."

Regardless:

Sure you can! "Your hand is dead. Scumbag."

You're splitting hairs. Neither one of those statements is a valid action for FOLD.

It's either: "I fold" or "Fold."



Why?


Do I feel sorry for the Chinese guy? I feel bad that he doesn't understand the language. And, that may have been the sole reason why he folded. The language barrier. The misunderstanding that probably magnified itself after the third party stepped in as translator. (Did you ever stop to think that the translator translated the message wrong)? But, you're just assuming that the American player deliberately said "I don't really want to fold" as a means to get the other guy to fold. And I don't think you can say that without being there.

Bull.

You softly say "I don't really want to" and pause and then clearly say "FOLD" is clearly an angle shot and could easily be held to the fold.

Especially when he asked if he would show if he folded and then the guy heard "FOLD" and showed.

Best interests of a fair game. Pretty much all any floor needs to make a ruling in anything resembling gray area.

He didn't "softly" say "I don't really want to." What OP said, was, that he put a little more emphasis on the word "fold", but, that doesn't mean that he said the beginning part of the sentence softly. It just doesn't.

If I ask you the same question and you hear me incorrectly, is that my fault? I'm not talking about when I say to you: "I don't really want to"(in a near whisper) and then follow that with the word FOLD(at a much higher decibel). Again, he only put a little more emphasis on the word "fold", but I think you have to take the entire sentence in context.

However it happened.

I still say if you use the word "fold" in a sentence causing your opponent to act you might be held to that fold.

Especially when you asked if he would show if you fold, and you pause and put more emphasis on the word fold.

To me it seems like a clear angle shot and using rule 1 to kill the hand is fine.

But i think "however it happened" is very important!

I think it's close. Not the angle part of it because for all we know this was a clear attempt to get the guy to fold. Or not. What I'm saying is that, I think having his hand ruled as a dead hand, is what will be close. I think this is one of those things that might actually cause the Floor to ask the dealer, and then to each player at the table what was said exactly, and how loud, or how low. I don't think this is cut in stone.

Obvious angle on the US players part

Not sure how you could have interpreted that as splitting hairs. I was expressing confusion, not arguing.

I'm accepting the word of the person who was there, for lack of any reason not to. You can consider the infinite amount of information that wasn't provided, but I'd like to stay out of that.

This is a judgement call. If OP is to be believed, and if other witnesses agree to those facts and relay them correctly to the floor, then the floor should kill the hand.