So, it's the dealer's fault that you're down multiple buy ins?

Isn't it always? I mean after all, the dealer is the one who cuts the cards.

<insert sarcasm here>

No more and no less than it is the dealer's fault when I'm up a few buy ins. I learned from dealers that I'm expected to tip more when I'm winning so I use their same logic to tip less when I'm losing.

When did he say it's the dealers fault when he's down multiple buy-ins? I think he said he doesn't want to tip when he's down. That's his choice. I don't blame him. I don't blame you for your position on this issue. I'm fine with it - to each his own.

There are plenty of things that happen in life that aren't my fault but are my problem. This (dealer tipping) IS NOT one of them. When I get a horrendous cooler ... the dealer doesn't throw me a dollar as concellation <sp>. I don't expect him to either ... but the guy who coolered me tends to give the dealer a big tip on those occasions. I'm not complaining - I'm saying that's what happens. Who cares? I can tip whatever I want - there is no right or wrong to it IMO.

What establishment charges customers less that what the goods and services they offer are worth? Show me one and I'll show you a mis-managed business ... this is just silly. Your own personal utility function might be different than others but no business charges less than what their good and services are worth (on average - given the utility function of it's average customer) ... Most charge more via agressive marketing campaigns that are designed to separate you from your money.

Frustrating! You tip all the time. Good for you! You must be a better human being than me. I'd bet dollars to donuts I make a more significant contribution to society than most. But if you (you in general - not YOU) knew what I did and what I charge for it, I'd bet dollars to donuts most would disagree.

I could easily argue that poker is bad for society. How much money do you think walks into the casino that is attained illegally and/or immorally? You, as a player frequenting casinos, are implicitly supporting that - like it or not that's the way it is. Drive a gas guzzler? Do you like supporting Arab nations? Do you like Strawberries s when they're out of season? How do you think they get to the store? They're shipped from somewhere on the planet where they are in season. Now you're supporting climate change via CO2 emissions.

But yeah, tipping dealers, that's important.

I don't think there's a right and wrong in tipping dealers or in anything I said above. It's more complicated than that - but you have to care to think about it. And when you think things through objectively and not subjectively you start seeing things more clearly and conducting yourself accordingly.

Keep an open mind - I try to - I'm often wrong.

You're mixed up here. I'm not a fan of the dealer / waitress (or whatever tipped profession) analogies as I view it as apples / oranges.

They shouldn't be advocating that you tip more when you're winning. If you elect to, that's your right, but they are wrong there in their logic.

Right, which is why we have a 34 page thread, because most dealers want it both ways:

"You just won a pot worth half of my yearly income - what's a measly green?"
"Even though you're stuck a car, what's one lousy buck more?"

Most of the dealers I know, (and there are dozens), took their current jobs with the HOPE of working full-time and receiving benefits. Nine times out of ten, when a poker room has openings, it's for part-time dealers only. That being said, it's often difficult for dealers to obtain another part-time job to supplement their income, due to fluctuating schedules and having to be "on-call" for the part-time gig.

So...in today's economy, when faced with the choice of accepting a part-time position, which you hope one day turns into a full-time job, or simply pass up the part-time offer and keep looking for full-time work--in your chosen field, with benefits--which would you do?

[QUOTE=Lester Kluke;38019726]Early on I found myself in some cooler spots and was on my 2nd & 3rd buy-ins pretty quick. One of my selective tipping rules is that I won't tip when I'm stuck and as I was stuck this entire session I tipped zero. The majority of pots I won were with one particular dealer and not big enough to get me out of the red, but not too small for an ordinary $1 tip. QUOTE]

So, you concede that you won a few pots worthy of a tip for the dealer during this session. But, because you were stuck from hand #1, you opted not to tip at all.

<Sarcasm> I like it! You can conveniently start out being stuck, win a few decent pots here and there, stay stuck for your entire session, then win a huge pot at some point to bring yourself back. Then, in an effort to alleviate any guilt (not that you'd have any) from not tipping, you can throw the dealer a buck and a thank-you, rack up and leave. You can then go home feeling really good about the session, your play, and yourself. </Sarcasm>

I'm sorry, but your personal rule about "not tipping when you're stuck", even when--admittedly--the dealer deserves a tip, is silly. That's like "not tipping the bartender unless/until I get drunk".

Restaurants. If they charged $30 when the public valued a meal there at $30 the public would consider that restaurant a very poor value. That is because everybody would realize that $30 meal is going to cost them about $36 after the tip. So the restaurant only charges $25 and the customer tips the waitress somewhere around $5.

Same point can be made for any business where at least some of the workers rely on tips to be fully compensated for their labor, including poker rooms.

Question: Does your bad tipping continue when you leave the poker table?

If you valet at the casino, do you tip nothing when you have a losing session and tip more when you have a winning session?

If you go out to dinner that night, will you tip the waiter/waitress more or less depending on how your session was?

What a disingenuous "question"

Your point is fine but the way of going about it asking a fake question really irks me

If your friends jump off a bridge would you do it mom kinda question.

So let's say you played bad or made a bad read and were stuck. Then you win a pot do you tip the dealer then. After all it's your fault you lost not a cooler.

Let's say walking in you drop$100 Bill and can't find it then sit down and win a pot do you tip.

My point is at what point is the dealer responsible? What is the line you draw to where the dealer deserves a tip for doing a good job.

For instance if you got coolered at one table. Then move tables do you now tip dealers at the new table. If a new dealer sits down at a table your stuck and he just started his shift do you not to him either. If that's the case at what point does this no tipping start over? At midnight? The next day?

If it's the next day why tip then your still stuck from the day before right. Which leads to my next point.

Let's say your stuck 3 buy ins one day. You don't tip cause your stuck. You come on the next day win a pot and tip immediately isn't that unfair to all the dealers that gave you good service the day before after all your still technically stuck from the day before and this dealer didn't do anything special the other dealers didn't do the day before. He gave you the same service as you received the day before. But he gets a tip cause it's a new day? That's not fair to all the dealers that gave you the same service the day before.

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Maybe you should make an argument for people tipping when they lose a pot, too. Being that the concept of tipping is, "Hey, I just pushed you a nice pot, give me a little something" than it's not unreasonable to have some people only want to tip when they are up. Yeah, I know, you'll say it has nothing to do with that and only to do with the great service they provide.

In that case, the most logical idea is to only tip at the end of a dealer's down, but dealers don't want you to do that (even though it makes the best sense if it truly is about service and not about any impulsive decisions immediately after winning money).

I don't know anyone that feels this way.

dealers work on tips just like dining, massages, and bell boys / thread.

So, you tip a dealer 20% of the pot, like you tip a waitress?

How would you equate tipping the parking valet to tipping a dealer that just dealt you a $50K BBJ hand?

But massages make sense. Sometimes dealers just rub you the wrong way.

$1 a pot minimum, just dont completley stiff them.

I can almost agree with this. You'll make your point better if you tip a bad dealer a quarter, instead of not at all.

Really? Read this thread.

Dealers think they won't get tipped because possibly a great tipper will lose the huge stack he built on their down when they might have gotten $20-$40 if he tipped on each pot. Or someone might go to the bathroom, or... and the list goes on.

I do think it would make more sense if rooms forbid tips until the end of the down. Then you would actually be tipping on service provided.

But nothing beats the rush of a donk dragging a huge pot and throwing a fistful of checks at the dealer, so I doubt you'd have many dealers in favor of tokes at the end of a down.

I have read the thread, this painful troll trap of a thread. The points you are making are the rare things that could go wrong during a dealers down. Yes, those things in particular could lead to a bad table for a particular dealer on a particular night. But in general, if I am going to receive say, $5 from a player during my down, I don't personally care whether it's a buck on 5 pots or if it's a red bird as I'm being tapped out.

I rarely chime in on this thread because i know it's futile and my official position is that no one should tell you how to spend your own money. But my personal position on tipping is that you should tip based on the service you received. If a dealer was exceptional, one should tip to reflect that, average tip a bit less and lousy, bad attitude, rude, I don't care if you tip that dealer air. This is why I personally feel like the model of tipping at the end of the down is best. You get an overall look at the dealers performance and reward them (or not) accordingly.

I've said several times that tipping good dealers more and bad dealers less will significantly improve this industry for both players and dealers because the bad ones would be unable to make a decent living and seek other employment. Good for us because it opens the door wider for those of us that care about our profession. Would likely result in more full time positions and less having to work 2 part time jobs for good dealers. And better for players because the overall skill level of the dealers you encounter would go up, resulting in a better customer experience.

You sound like a dealer that understands dealing for tips. This is quite different than most of the dealers in this thread, imo, and most dealers back when I used to tip at the end of a down, too. I agree with everything you've said.

Curious, how long have you been dealing for?

the problem with tipping at the end of a down is that it doesn't happen. People tip after they win pots. Not when the dealer gets up.

Very few dealers care about dealing a lot of dealers care about money.

I agree with this, people will either be caught up in something, in the restroom, or something of that fashion. The problem lies in the process of this business. When you go to eat, or valet your car you understand what the cost of that service is up front so you can factor the tip in. When you play poker you may understand the variables like you may expect to make money but at the end of the day there is luck involved. So you can lose. The dealer can have something to do with thus but if he does his job properly he is an innocent bystander in the situation.

Kinda like if you have the nicest most attentive waitress in the world but the chef messes the food up do you now not tip the waitress? It's not get fault but I'm sure she would take the negative in the tip for a lot of people.

Playing live you have to understand that tips are a part of the situation whether you are winning or losing when you drag a pot throw a buck if you are getting good service.

Bottom line is if people focused as much attention to their game improvement as they do on ways to be cheap for the whole penny saved penny earned logic. The tips they throw wouldn't have that big of an impact on there bottom line.
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