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Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand?

08-19-2009 , 04:41 AM
UTG in Seat 5 straddles to $10 but it's not announced by the dealer. Folded to Seat 9 who says call and puts out $5(big blind). Dealer says "it's ten". Seat 9 says "Oh... can I fold?" while looking a little confused probably because dealer didn't announce the straddle when action began. Player's hand is on his cards and the cards are not close to the muck. Dealer says "Yes" and in one action pulls his $5 into the pot and takes his cards from the player's hand mucking them, making contact with the player's hand in the process. Player's hand was on his cards and never released them to the muck. Player protests saying he was going to call, that he only asked a question about whether he could fold. Dealer says "You folded". Player calls for floor.

Floor rules in dealer's favor and repeats again and again the line "It's the player's responsibility to protect his cards". Player repeatedly asks the question "Are you saying that it's OK for the dealer to physically take cards from a player's hand to the extent of making contact with the hand, because even in such a situation the player should fight physically with the dealer to protect his cards??" Floor repeats "It's the player's responsibility to protect his cards, dealer did not intentionally muck your cards." Player reples "Whether or not it's intentional, I had the cards in my hand and I did not fold, you are saying it's OK to have the cards taken out of my hand by the dealer??"

At this point another player says to the floor "That's a good point, if this had been on the river in a $2,000 pot and dealer takes the cards out of a player's hand, are you still going to rule that it's the player's responsibility to protect his hand?"

Seat 9 is agitated that floor seems to repeat a line without answering his question, and floor told him "If you are going to continue to act belligerently, you're going to have to rack up and call it a night.. my ruling is the final ruling it's the player's responsibility to protect his hand even if dealer unintentionally took them out of the player's hand..." Seat 9 replies "I just want you to answer my question, are you allowing the dealer to muck someone's hand by physically taking the cards out of the hands of a player..." Floor says "OK that's it you can leave now... or just shut up and play."

I was at the table and thought the floor was the one being belligerent(and wrong). What do you think?
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 05:13 AM
Wow.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 05:41 AM
shift manager then poker room manager then gaming officials

this is borderline theft is it not?
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 06:42 AM
So what did you want the floor to do. magically give the cards back?

Asking the question can I fold in this situation is an indication that you want to fold. there really is no reason to ask that question if you don't intend to fold if allowed.

One thing about your post does strike me. You make a big deal about the the player never released the cards into the muck, but I also don't get a sense from your post that the player offered any resistance to the dealer, you seem to be inidcating not that the dealer ripped the cards out of the players hand, but that they were taken out of the players hand. Perhaps you can clarify this.

It would be silly to say that a players responsibility to protect his cards only exists when there is nothing to protect them from.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 07:27 AM
just break dealer's wrist next time this happens
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 08:20 AM
One thing that doesn't make sense in the story is that the "in one action pulls his $5 into the pot and takes his cards from the player's hand mucking them." If you fold your hand pf, there is no bet and the player gets his $5 back. If he does bet, he has to match the straddle. There can't be an in between.

I'd call the poker room manager if this really happened to me.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 08:45 AM
Basically, player called then realized there was an unannounced straddle. The player's question of whether he can fold was just that, a question. Dealer took player's cards from his hand without returning the $5. Player complained that he never folded, floor said it's player's responsibility to protect his cards. Player asked how cards in his hand can be physically taken by the dealer and mucked.

Dealer of course did wrong, player's cards should not have been mucked, and if they were, the "called" bet should've been returned since dealer treated player as having folded. However, I found the floor to be much more in the wrong because he simply stood by his dealer allowing a "live" hand to be mucked while adding dead money to the pot that should not have been added. Then floor was very rude to player which was ridiculous. From what I know, player wanted to speak to floor's boss after the ruling, to which floor said "I'm the boss, there's no one above me".

I wasnt involved in the hand but I found it very concerning because of ramifications it has for big pot situations and how the floor arrogantly swept it under the carpet at the expense of the player in Seat 9 which could've been any one....
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 09:33 AM
I have seen some dealers do some stupid things but im not so sure that the dealer actually took the cards out of the players hands. If the player was really going to call the straddle in the first place why cause confusion with the dealer and ask can i fold when everyone knows or should know at the 2-5NL level that you can INDEED FOLD. Seems like the player was just being annoying but i wasnt there. The Floor should be reported to PR Manager cause a few of these guys need an attitude adjustment. I have had a few run-ins with KNOW-IT-ALL floor guys that didnt even know what the definition of straddle meant.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 11:44 AM
Where did this happen at???
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cure4sars
shift manager then poker room manager then gaming officials
This this this this this. Do not let them get away with bull**** like this.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 12:49 PM
Quote:
From what I know, player wanted to speak to floor's boss after the ruling, to which floor said "I'm the boss, there's no one above me".
Time to find another room to play in.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 12:56 PM
The floor was obviously being a total dick on a power trip. What room was this in?
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 01:07 PM
Floor may have been a dick, but the cards probably aren't retrievable from the muck. Only thing floor could do is give him his $5 back.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 01:25 PM
two things here, the dealer was wrong and acted to quickly.

However, the rules rightfuly so do not qualify what is and isnt a "protected hand" so... if the dealer was in fact able to take the players hand then it wasnt protected.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomplaya
I was at the table and thought the floor was the one being belligerent(and wrong). What do you think?
Obviously, it is the player's responsibility to protect his hand (also the player's responsibility to follow the action), but mistakes do happen, and sounds to me that the dealer made one.
I think the Floor was simply unwilling to admit that the dealer might have erred, and didn't know how to handle it correctly.
In this case, I think the floor should have agreed that the dealer might have erred, but (assuming the cards were irretrievable) that it had to stand as a fold, and given the player back his $5.
I think that ejecting the player was way over the top, assuming that OP was accurate; probably floor should have invited the player to join him off to the side for a more private and calmer discussion.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 01:51 PM
That is the worst ruling, worst dealer I have ever heard of.

What room is this please? Name of floor and dealer?

IMO never EVER tip that dealer again.


AB
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by buda4every1
However, the rules rightfuly so do not qualify what is and isnt a "protected hand" so... if the dealer was in fact able to take the players hand then it wasnt protected.
Wrong.

"protected" means covered by at least a chip. A hand is certainly more protected than a chip.


AB
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 01:55 PM
Wasn't there an incident during the WSOP in a cash game where a bracelet winner broke the dealer's hand when the dealer tried to touch his cards? Maybe that's an extreme example of protecting your hand (in fact, I believe it is extreme), but it's the player's responsibility at all times and at all stages of the hand to protect their hand.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 01:58 PM
Wow, glad it wasn't me. If a dealer physical touch me to muck my card and floor acted as described, I would demand a supervisor while threatening to call the police because the dealer assaulted me.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 02:31 PM
if the players hand is protected than they may have redress, what redress does a player have who has no cards?

second your hand IS NOT protected if it gets mucked, there is no way it gets mucked if it is protected
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 02:40 PM
What room was this at op? Please to be answering so I can never ever go there.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by buda4every1
if the players hand is protected than they may have redress, what redress does a player have who has no cards?

second your hand IS NOT protected if it gets mucked, there is no way it gets mucked if it is protected
Redress is an apology and his $5 back.

Bruno the dealer reaches over and punches you in your mouth.
Bruno takes your cards and mucks them.
Clearly, you failed to protect your hand.

My new card protector

Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle
Redress is an apology and his $5 back.

Bruno the dealer reaches over and punches you in your mouth.
Bruno takes your cards and mucks them.
Clearly, you failed to protect your hand.

My new card protector

I Love it
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomplaya
Floor repeats "It's the player's responsibility to protect his cards, dealer did not intentionally muck your cards."

"my ruling is the final ruling it's the player's responsibility to protect his hand even if dealer unintentionally took them out of the player's hand..."
Couldn't you just argue that the dealer's mucking of the cards was intentional, and therefore bs?
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote
08-19-2009 , 03:29 PM
I like how the floor is adamant the dealer mucked the hand "unintentionally". If a dealer does that without actually intending to do it, he/she should be hospitalised.

You bump someone at the mall unintentionally. You don't unintentionally take their wallet in the process.
Player's responsibility to protect his hand.. even when dealer takes cards from player's hand? Quote

      
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