I straddled on button, four or five called, and back on me I attempted the raise. If I remember right she ended up making the point since I took the nickel chip out before putting the green in, it was not a raise. If i throw the green in then pick up the red it's a raise (obviously). Never saw that one coming.

Again. The proper result is determined by consulting the specific rule that applies when a single oversized chip is added to the pot. The player's use of the oversized chip was obviously action.

And part of that rule is that if you declare that you are raising it is a raise.

If he said "raise" it would be a raise, if he said "25" it would be a raise, why wouldn't it be a raise if he said bet?

This is clearly a situation where the dealer should just clarify the action. 'Bet' is ambiguous, but that fact that her verbally declared something indicates that he meant some type of action. This should be treated no differently than if he mumbled or spoke with a heavy accent. Just ask 'How much?' or 'Is this a call or a raise?' or 'what action are you intending?'

To force him into a call when he is a new player based on misstating a raise as a bet is pretty nitty. Heck, there was an entire thread here where a supposedly experienced player kept arguing that they were the same.

My work experience is all in Las vegas. But I have worked in many rooms here and not one room I have worked in has had such a rule that said the plain meaning of a players doesn't count and only a select set of official words have meaning. Yes TDA rules prefer official language but that is a warning that players bear the risk of being misunderstood if they do not use standard terms.


I think I would have the same clarity in the sense that I would understand him to be intending to bet the entire amount. I am not certain why you think it would make a difference. Cash doesn't play in my room so we could allow this bet.... but that is what I would understand he was attempting to do.


Same thing. Why would this change. Seems even more likely that the player simply is not aware of the previous bet.

As a dealer? Well once we have this situation it goes to the floor. But as a floor I'm asking chuckle head why he announced "bet" if he wasn't trying to bet the whole amount. I might let him out of the raise if there is no action behind him and he convinces me he is complete Newbie and I sense the table doesn't care.

There's also a big difference between a bet and a call. Dealer should stop and clarify the action but if that opportunity has passed then the intent seems clear. A bet can be a raise but a bet cannot be a call.

Well, the easy answer is because we want him to use the word "raise" when he intends to raise.

Re. the OP's case, we don't know what denomination the chip was. Does that make a difference? I think what's happening here is we are assuming that it was merely a somewhat oversized chip and we are making a judgment that he intended to raise.

Re. the specific vocalization, what if the dealer announces raise, and then the player says "No, I didn't intend to raise?" What then?

I think the correct outcome in OP's case is for the dealer to return the bet and tell the player his action was not understood. But at that point, then, I believe the correct ruling is the player can only call the bet.

What if the player had just sat down, put two pumpkins on the felt, and had pushed a pumpkin forward with his finger and said "bet" without releasing? Would it matter at that point how much the pumpkin is worth and whether the one chip has everyone else covered?

I would say no - the goal is to take the simplest/most obvious step towards resolution; so rather than trying to interpret all of these variables the simplest observation is - play intended to put money in the pot, verbalized that it was a bet and due to the absence of saying an amount it should logically be inferred it is the amount of the chip he placed in the middle. The only exception would be if the chip amount didnt fit the legal size of a minimum bet (or re-raise) in which case the dealer would correct them and tell them the additional minimum amount to put in to cover that.

No. And I can't even imagine why you would think it does.

So then if the player says make it $1000 we should consider it a call because we want him to say "raise"?

Yes, exactly. I am making the reasonable judgement that by saying "bet" while throwing out a single oversized chip he is expressing an intent to raise, and not call the big blind. How is that less reasonable than assuming a call?

A noob comes in, isn't 100% clear on the rules, and some of y'all want to scare him off with pedantic discussions about pumpkins?

Let's be clear. He didn't put pumpkins on the table. They're golden eggs. Don't kill the goose.

Signed,
A non-vegan who wants to eat those f-ing eggs

My experience is that it is not uncommon for players to mix up bet and raise. But it is not very common for them to mix up bet and call.

Um, no. If a pumpkin is worth 2500 and the player says "make it 1000," the player is making it clear what the amount of the bet is. That's the whole reason for the oversize chip rule, because the amount of the bet is unclear. The fact that the player said "bet" doesn't do anything to clarify the amount.

The oversize chip rule is there to prevent the player from angling, in a way that's similar to past posting. The dealer shouldn't help an angler angle.

The fact that noobs sometimes get caught by the rule doesn't mean the rule goes away when a noob sits down. The other players have a right to know whether the bet has been raised. It is their right, when they enter the pot, to know what the amount of the noob's bet is. That is in addition to the fact that the noob bet.

If the word "bet" means raise when the noob says it, then the word "bet" means raise, period.

That is also true for when a player says "raise" when throwing out an oversized chip without stating an amount.

A little late to the party here but ...

1) Isn't a raise a form of a bet? Like Rhombus and Square? So by saying "Bet" that should open the door up to all definitions of a bet. The issue here could be if you also consider a Call a form of 'betting'.

2) I think this is a very appropriate spot for a dealer/floor to step in and clarify how things are going to be moving forward but I would error towards this being a raise to the full amount of the chip.

3) I play with a guy who calls every 'hand' a 'game' and ends each hand with 'good game' ... Once it was clarified what he meant we just let it be going forward. Get a clarification and move on.

4) As far as the straddler ... Any time I see a player pull back chips it's assumed that a raise is coming. I can understand this going either way, even if the green was tossed out first unfortunately, but shame on both the dealer and player for not doing a little extra other than giving attitude.

We as humans can be lazy. It's always better to make sure you don't leave too many back doors when you try to make something happen. GL

Idk this seems straight forward. In my room if the one chip is big enough to be a legal raise and the statement was loud enough for the dealer to clarify then the raise should stand. See this fairly often in games where big chips are useable/often in play.

If not big enough it's usually ruled a call. Not sure the RR on this and the floors are train wrecks a lot at the rooms I play but that's what I would expect.

Thanks a lot. I am now tempted, the next time I play, to throw in an oversize chip and say "alligator."

well played

What about players who aren't facing a bet post-flop and announce 'raise'. Do nits let them get away with that or so they to force a check?

For the straddler, in my room if you pull back your staddle/bet/raise, without saying 'raise', it's counted as a 'call'. I hate that house rule....

OP,

Dealer should clarify and I'm 100% ok with allowing the raise and explaining to the noob a little more about what words to use when.

No. You said the reason it isn't a raise is because we want him to say raise. I gave you a perfectly valid example of a proper raise that doesn't involve saying raise.

My position has never been. Hey he is a newb give him a break. My position is that by saying bet in that case it was 100% percent clear that he was making the total bet the full amount of the chip...exactly the same as if he said raise, or make it $x, or bump it up, or raisey daisy.

Amen.

Here are quotes from robert's rules (11 if the internet is to be trusted) and the TDA.

If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet, but do not announce a raise, you are assumed to have only called. Example: In a $3-$6 game, when a player bets $6 and the next player puts a $25 chip in the pot without saying anything, that player has merely called the $6 bet.

When facing a bet or blind, pushing out a single oversized chip is a call if raise isn’t first declared. To raise with an oversized chip, raise must be declared before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared but no amount, the raise is the maximum allowable for the chip. When not facing a bet, pushing out an oversized chip without declaration is a bet of the maximum for the chip.


Neither says you have to say the word raise, just that you need to "announce" or declare "a raise." I think "bet" clearly is announcing or declaring a raise. If someone said "bet 25" preflop in 1/2, it would be a raise to 25 (if that is a legal raise), I don't see how this situation is different at all.