[QUOTE=RedOak;32283407]If the ruling is you can say "I call" then not pay when you lose, why should there be a lifetime ban? You didn't do anything against the rules, right?... [Wrong.].....QUOTE]

Casino rules and state laws aren't the same thing....
Not paying isn't against the law, but it's most certainly a violation of casino rules, and they most certainly can (and should) ban you for it.

That's some fairly crucial info you left out.

Good ruling. Dealer error for being too quick to announce all in.

I'm ok with letting player B take back the $20 if he speaks up before player A tables his hand. He tossed chips in silently. Dealer announced "that's a call" and he stayed silent. Player B tabled his hand. Only then did player A say "hey wait". Player A caused action behind (player B exposed his cards). Too late to say "I didn't mean to call".

I'm not particularly fond of the new-fangled trend everybody has picked up of putting out a single chip or a couple chips to indicate a call for a lot more for exactly this sorta reason. But it's ubiquitous anymore. Kinda ruins the protection Robert's Rules offers allowing a do-over if you are clearly unaware of the bet size you're facing.

Not paying is against the law in Nevada. We have statutes which cover exactly these sorts of situations.

Oops, I forgot about Nevada law.
In many other states, gambling debts are not legally enforceable and specific laws covering casino no-pays don't exist. (But the non-payers will get thrown out.)
But does this mean a Nevada casino would actually force someone to honor his call, or else call police? (I hope so - I've heard of this, but never seen it.)

But the casino itself can't force you to put the money in. And the police aren't likely to look into the situation based on how vague it all is. I think realistically this is the best the floor can do. Calling the police is going to waste everyone's time.

isn't that why most casinos use those little annoying red and white cards that are marked... ALL IN and CALL!

Not sure B had time to speak up.

That rule has ZERO applicability to this situation. The rule refers to a situation where there is a misunderstanding about the bet size. But there was none in this instance.

[QUOTE=MJ88;32285043] Exc ept for the part where it is illegal .... I've told the story here to many times to repeat but I was involved in a matter where the casino detaine dthe player who trie dto not pay the bet, the gaming officer told the player his choice was pay or be prosecuted.... the player payed.

How large does the call have to be in this situation before the dealer can safely and without confirmation declare it a full call? There is a number between $20 and $300 where the intent is clear, so where is that point?

I habitually shuffle $50 worth of reds in my right hand. Whenever I call a large or all-in bet of around $300, I always move the $50 that's in my hand across the line. There has never been confusion about my intent to call.

Now I'm thinking that I have been ripping myself off $250 at a time whenever I've held the losing hand My primary room is the Venetian, btw.

Good thing for the caller that he wasn't holding blacks or greens in his hand, I guess.

This is what I was referring in my earlier post. The actual details of the scenarios can be very different than what is posted here.

When you add the facts I've bolded, for me anyway, it changes everything. While some technicalities need to be enforced, I've never thought poker was about penalizing someone for a genuine innocent mistake. If you could prove it was an angle, I'd have a completely different opinion but since you are convinced it was a sincere attempt to fold, I think the floor was right.

This post scares the hell out of me. I was at MGM recently (don't play there often) but guy who seemed like he could very well be a regular calls my $120 bet on the river by throwing in $10 at a time (2 red birds). I am waiting for him to keep putting it in till it hits $120 but when only $20 or $30 is in the pot, the dealer turns to me and says, "That's a call."

I take his word and flip over my hand. The other guy had me out kicker on top pair with his J over my 9 so I lost but if I had won, would I have been open to this angle?

This is crazy and I will now wait for the full bet to cross the line. I usually wait for this but in times when player verbally says call, dealer tell me to show hand so I usually do. I am now changing my approach. I do not flip hand over until chips are in the middle. I am concerned that this will seem like a tell of weakness and will cause the call but I guess it was gonna be a call either way.

There's a world of difference between "that's a call" and "is that a call?"

Even if you want the ruling to determine it a call, you save a boatload of aggravation if your opponent accepts the action the same as you or the dealer interpret it BEFORE you react to it.

Protect your hand. Don't rely on crappy dealers.

fwiw, I saw this same ruling at the Venetian in LIMIT hold 'em. It was a reg who claimed he was confused. He was facing 1 bet, called by throwing two chips in and then the player right behind him raised. The floor ruled the 2chips stayed in the pot but he didn't have to put the other 6 in and could fold. No threats to ban were given. I tried to demand the floor at least warn the guy but was told to basically get a life ("We're talking about $12 here")

I have a bit of a feeling that regs know how the floor will rule on these things and have a carte blanche to angleshoot tourists knowing that there will be no consequences. What's the point of losing a reg to appease a tourist who'll be gone in two days anyway?

Yep. And was this a deer caught in the headlights or a regular?

The thing is, yes you are open to the angle, but people are pretty unlikely to follow through with it. Especially if its someone that "seems to be a regular". It just wouldn't be worth it to get permabanned in order to save $100.

The best thing you can do obviously is wait for the money to go in. If the dealer says "that's a call" you can say "then have him put the money in".

And I just wanted to point out that the partial call thing isn't always an angle. I used to do it with some frequency if I was facing a relatively large bet that had some change on it. It was just easier to put in $10 than $610. And if I won it saved me some effort. After playing for a while and getting more comfortable in casinos though now I usually just verbalize my actions. Easier for everyone.

Is this something that is realtively new?

I've been playing every year in Vegas, but last week was the first time I saw (and on at least 5 occasions) where facing an all in bet, Player B would just throw a few chips over the line and the dealer would say "that's a call". Now in each case, that was the clear intent, but I was wondering what would happen if Player B decided not to push the rest in after seeing he lost. Being that it happened in tourney play might be different, but I'm not so sure.

I also saw instances where a player would verbally say "Call" and the dealer would instruct him to place a few chips over the line so the cameras knew the intention.

Again - no disputes happened, but only playing there for a few days I noticed it numerous times. I did not see it happen at the cash tables, however.

Go back and read post #24 and reach enlightenment.

Seconded.

It is bad enough when an eyewitness posts his impressions as gospel truth, but when the story is at best second hand, how can anybody treat the incident as anything other than a hypothetical?

Here is the above situation angle shot to perfection:


Guy says "I Call" without putting chips in, dealer announces the call, guy sees he is beat, then mucks, and doesnt have to pay, but would have shown his cards and claimed the pot if he had the winner.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...t-wsop-865452/

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I regularly play at the Venetian. I and other regulars as well as tourists frequently call large bets by pushing a smaller stack forward or throwing a few chips in. There has never been a problem or a question about the intent.

fwiw, I'm not the kind of guy who has to be super silent with every action he takes, so I also say "call" as I push a small stack forward. There is zero ambiguity about what I'm doing.

There is a quick, simple and easy solution. If you are called on the river and you think you have the winner, DO NOT TABLE YOUR HAND until opponent puts the correct sum in the middle.

And if he does ANYTHING other than say "call" and put the correct chips across the line, then sit there, shut up, and let the dealer handle it.

for the most part I agree, though I might speak up and confirm... "is that a call?"

HOWEVER, I have seen this happen and then the looser grabs his remaining cheques and runs out of the room.
yes true story

I play at the Venetian often and this is def standing operating procedure. To the original post, I believe the ruling is correct but it is of course very scumbagish. As mentioned waiting until the dealer tells you to show your hand in a spot like this is usually a good idea to avoid shenanigans.