I may have a different perspective being on the receiving end of someone like you. My someone became one who plans poker trips but never family vacations. Hasn't been home for a father's day in 3 years because of WSOP qualifying events. You get the point.

If I came home and told my husband that through a series of training really hard, trying it on a amateur level a few times, and really finding a great hobby now that I am making real money, do you think he'd let me become a stripper part-time? I'd show him the earning potential. Prove to him I could make money consistently, only be gone a few weekends a month. I LOVE the attention and self-esteem it brings. I love stripping and because I work really hard on achieving this amazing body and make lots of money there can't possibly be anything else to consider. I mean that is your logic right?

I read every one of your threads and while many are well-considered, many others may be drinking the same kool-ade as my husband, probably ex-husband soon on the path he is on. I read your threads to try to understand this from his perspective, to try to have some empathy, hoping I could understand from your voices. Because from where I sit, a devouted wife, 2 great kids, and a happy loving family (his one gripe with me he says is that I gossiped too much with one particular friend who I don't speak to anymore as a result)- all will be lost because he LOVES poker.

As an outsider looking in on this world, understanding the moral issue but not judging quite so harshly myself, I can tell you that not long ago he would declare his love for me, tell me I was his whole world. Deep down I always knew that slowly, over the course of the last 8 years, poker was his true love now. Poker got the best of him, we got the rest.

With his crazy hours he compared himself to an ER doctor. (I wonder, does an ER doctor have difficulty renting an apartment due to no documentable income? Does an ER doctor go without benefits? no vacation time? Doesn't an ER doctor pay into Social Security?)

I know many of you are younger, not married with children, not understanding the burden one has when responsibile for the lives of others, but I can tell you this- all of you willing to lose everything that used to be really good in your life over a hobby seem to have lost perspective on what is really important. There really is something about this poker world that changes people on a very deep level.

OP- I think your wife is feeling that your priorities are changing quickly and dramatically. Your reluctance to pull away from poker verifies her well-founded fear. You are likely less interested in things that used to hold interest to you and reading, watching, or thinking about poker more often than you'd admit even to yourself. Your wife is very much tuned into all that is at stake. If I were the betting person, I'd say your wife is often scared and lonely. She might be willing to do just about anything to prioritize your happiness, it just can't be at the expense of the family as a unit. Your wife may notice that she's beginning to pick up some responsibilities that used to be yours, maybe bringing kids to soccer on Mondays that you find yourself still in tournies or the like. The entire balance could be shifting ever so slightly at a time but shifting none-the-less until the way you function as a family with poker in it is very different than you did when you were just your regular family.

Dismissing this as just a hobby, or just a part time job, really underestimates the place poker has taken up in your heart. After all, I read a lot of love of poker from you folks but far less love of families. Families got a bit more of the "screw them if they don't understand my love of poker" attitude. As if people are more disposible than a hobby.

Not trying to start a fight. And believe me when I tell you poker has taken enough from me that I am sincerely hoping you'll be a little gentle in your backlash. Just thought if you really wanted to consider your wife's feelings I could probably add perspective being that a year ago we were about where you are now.

I'm not sure what thread you're referencing. Is it this one?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/26...devil-1053202/

If it isn't please link the one that it is.

I have a few observations w/e post you're talking about.

First let's dismiss the comparison between stripping and poker as they are clearly not the same. Firstly poker attracts many women players. Secondly it is not directed at the salacious and carnal side of human nature. I imagine that you thought of it because you also mention the 'moral issue' which you followed w/ what is the real problem to you. IMO the one does not follow the other.

The rest of your post is solid. I didn't read the entirety of the thread that I linked but your remarks in this one should be carefully considered by any man that thinks that pro poker (esp B&M poker bec of the varied and long hours away from home and perhaps having to adhere to a tourney schedule that trumps family schedules) should fit in well w/ family life.

This observation 'There really is something about this poker world that changes people on a very deep level.' if you remove 'changes' w/ 'can change' is accurate for the player that attempts to play winning poker. Notice that I said 'winning poker' bec there's a tremendous difference between the occasional, recreational, having fun player and the player determined to become good enough to win and a strong determination and dedication is what is required to do it. It appears that your husband has become consumed w/ poker and that is understandable bec it happens to so many players that make the attempt.

Whenever this topic comes up I always remark that I think that pro players should only marry other pro players and I think many of them realize that also bec I see so many players actually dating/marrying other players or poker dealers. In that way the poker world is rather incestuous.

There is no advice that I can give you. You are unhappy w/ reason to be unhappy. I've seen more than a few marriages busted up over poker and here comes one more. This is just another of the dirty sides to this game that is far, far more than a game and only the people that dedicate themselves to it understand that last part.

Best of luck to you and your family.

Well, a final thought that might help: I know a couple of pro B&M players that have maintained both financial success and a good family life by restricting themselves to set hours, almost entirely in the daytime games. You should know that the daytime games are generally considered (for good reason) as not as good (profitable) as the night games. Less players, fewer drinkers, not many coming in from work to relax, etc. Most players that are trying to play at the pro level know that they have to play when the games are good, the games are mostly good at night and if they happen to get a call from a friend sitting in one so off they go. Perhaps you can get your husband to transition to playing the day shift. He'll likely fight you on that one though.

-----------------------

You younger guys: Take this woman's pov very seriously. If you want to be a pro player, if you want to give it your best shot, you should, imo, carefully consider whether you should get married or not and if you do choose very wisely. And remember, when the kids come and the variance kicks in, your going to be in a tough spot.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/26...t-now-1063243/

I'm sorry. I hope I did this correctly. The post I was referring to was "wife v poker what now". I think I posted the link above.

I understand your comments regarding the difference between stripping and poker but my point was that there only seemed to be two considerations 1. do you make money and 2. do you love it. If those two considerations were met then the wife should surely be on board. I was trying to show that perhaps, like it or not, those shouldn't be the only two considerations.

I really don't have a moral problem with poker in itself, I don't love the fact that for one or a few people to win so many others have to lose and often those people really couldn't afford the loss, but I also understand the correlation to the stock market. The real time a moral issue comes to play is when someone owes my husband money due to gambling and he and I know the money is coming from rent or food money from his family. I don't want to be part of taking someone's money to live or their family to eat.

I think perhaps my husband would be happier living with or married to another poker player, but then again, he doesn't have enough money to get his own apartment (he's been living in a frieind's apartment for months), now that I've required him to pay his own bills, aside from his health insurance that I still cover, he is at least forced to see that poker doesn't provide for everything. So if he were with an independently weathly and generous person, or a person who really does make enough money at poker to live, then yes, in all honesty, I think he'd be happier. But if he only finds someone like himself then he'll always struggle financially because he is 40 without any money at all. Literally at the point that he has negative equity due to his car loan ( a loan obtained bc a poker friend was a car dealership manager and helped him out at an outrageous interest rate) and only having the money that is in his pocket at any given time.

He used to get backed by someone and had to share his winnings. Not sure how common this practice is. As a result, for one tournament, he won approx $25k. Once he split his winnings and had the taxes taken out and gambled some more, he came home with $4k. He didn't use that money to contribute to the family because in all honesty, he needed it for his bankroll. Bankroll is always first considertation over family needs. His wants before family needs. Anyway, it wasn't a great situation to claim the $25k on our taxes when $4k was all there was to show for it, but he just gave his standard "don't worry about it" response.

Refusal to see the downsides of this life indicates to me that there is a problem. If all the downsides are minimized (time away from family, documentable income and qualifying for mortgages or loan issues, tax issues, lack of retirement issues, etc) and the upside is exaggerated, then the poker player isn't taking a realistic inventory of how poker is affecting his life.

My thought is, if you are engaging in a lifestyle that takes you out of the ability to qualify for any credit, then you ought to be making enough money that it won't be an issue. Now that we are very near the end of foreclosure process, it should weigh on any father's conscience that he has no credit or documentable income to ensure we have a place to live. Instead he just says he can't understand why he still wants poker in his life.

I don't know where my children and I will live once we are kicked out of this house, and still his primary concern is how to keep poker in his life. This is a very educated and employable man. He is someone who has sought counseling for months to deal with his gambling issues. But his bottom line is he loves poker and still wants it in his life.

For those of you who think I laid down an ultimatum and said it would be poker or your family, you are entirely wrong. I never made an ultimatum. His living away from his family lies solely in the fact that he resents that he has to contribute to household bills (even his own bills) because it prevents him from being a successful poker player. So he left us.

His non poker friends no longer recognize him. He is so different, his entire value system changed with poker. I have a difficult time accepting that something that can take you from someone who cares deeply about your family's future to someone who will lose everything to be able to gamble is as benign as some of you hope it to be.

I know not all of you are problem gamblers. I'm sorry if it came across that I thought everyone has issues. I read a lot of justification on these boards and I guess it struck a nerve.

wow

true thread

solid as hell

gl op

a real man can achieve balance in life and work, that is what its all about.

Balance.

Thanks for the link. This sub-forum only goes back 5 pages and I obv have my posts per page set too low to find older threads.

The two cases are much different but that does you no good. There's no consolation or advice I can offer. You say that your husband is educated and employable and he's throwing his family away anyway. IMO his problem goes much deeper than poker but that does you no good either if you can't get him to face up to it. Many readers are going to be thinking something along the lines of 'this really isn't poker related, that wouldn't be me, I've got my head on straight' and that very well might be the case but it also might not.

I think that your story is important and I hope that it gets a good deal of exposure. If it saves even one family it will have been worth the effort.

Thank you for your well wishes and comments. I don't know why it is comforting for a stranger to empathize or wish you well but somehow it is.

I also agree with you that his problems are deeper, stemming from a pretty horrific childhood. But then again, I suppose most people with an addiction have some horror story of their past to tell.

Have any of you seen the study that showed that compulsive gambling changes the brain chemistry most similarly to cocaine addiction? I thought that was pretty interesting.

poker2wife2,

I understand your situation and based on what you are saying, your husband is wayy out of line and seems totally useless.

I must point out that that my situation (wife v poker) is rather different, as fortunately, we dont have any financial issues. (as mentioned in the post w details) But I do understand the overall point you are trying to make here

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/26...devil-1053202/

no, that's me....my wife is still here and happy (hopefully )

I've said before that having poker in your life is alot like owning a pet chimpanzee. It can be entertaining, it can be challenging, and it can do useful things for you, but if you dont keep it under control it can rip your bestfriend's face off, or if you take it to work with you it just might tear up the office and get you fired, or if you let it loose in the house it might climb into bed with you at night and wedge itself between you and your wife. You have to keep poker in its little box in order for the rest of your life to function normally, and this is very difficult for a serious player to do.

I was married for 6 years, and played poker for a living for 2 of those years. Poker isnt the reason my wife and I separated, but it didnt help. Its a very hard job that requires tons of attention and emotional fortitude. Its something u have to be obsessed with in order to be good at. That just doesnt jive well with a relationship. My wife always felt like I was putting her second. And I was a winning player who was paying the bills with poker profit. So I can only imagine how u must feel.

What your H is doing is chasing a dream. Just to play devils advocate for a sec I'll just say I bet he isnt happy either. Hes been working hard at this for years and it hasnt panned out and hes probably wondering why. Deep down hes probably afraid of losing you but feels hes invested so much into poker that he needs to stay the course (quitters never succeed right? and its always darkest b4 the dawn?). He probably wants nothing more than for you and the kids to be proud of him and think of him as a success. In order to do this he feels he must break thru and hit it big with poker so he can finally be the husband/father he hasnt been able to be recently. In his mind in the end it will've all been worth it. Something like that.

The problem is that he is chasing a mirage. It just isnt going to happen. He's a degen who is lying to himself, convinced he is a professional when all evidence points to the former. Players like this will often make up stuff like that "ER doctor" crap to keep themselves deluded. Comforting little illusions that enable their disease and allow it to continue to puppeteer them while their lives fall apart around their ears.

If you still love him and still want him, youre going to have to get thru to him somehow. Youre going to have to do whatever u have to to break the spell hes under. I can almost guarantee you that if he doesnt play poker at all for a month he will be happier and feel much better and be a totally different person. The trick is to get him there you may have to threaten to leave him.

Whatever you do, and however u feel, try not to be demeaning to him. He still has feelins, hes just being astronomically dumb and outside his mind. Doesnt mean he doesnt still care necessarily. Dont insult him, but be firm, and stick to your guns. Its gonna be up to you, because left alone, the problem is unlikely to correct itself.

Hope things get better.

But there's a difference between

a. winners and losers at poker - One just has to look at the session records over a period of time and the excel will tell the story. Numbers dont lie.

b. being passionate and being addicted to it - This is a bit more subjective, but most addicts know when they are addicted to something. Its just many of them cannot get out of it w/o help.

what2do-

I don't know that it is all that simple.

My husband didn't start out this way, it was very progressive over 8 years.

I can't honestly say he would be a loser at poker by everyone's definition. For example:

a. if you have no other source of income and you lose money over the course of the week, does that make you a loser? What if you win the next and tell yourself it's fine?
b. if you deem yourself a professional and have enough money, winning money to improve your bankroll and afford your trips but no money to contribute to even your own bills, does that make you a loser?
c. What if you make enough money to support yourself but leave your family to fend for themselves?

I just don't know what the definition of winnning and losing is when one deems themselves professional all the while their family is suffering.

On your excel sheet, you won more than you lost but maybe you can't call yourself a winner(or professional) because your earning potential at a job is 10x what you make at poker.

I don't think it's passion vs. addiction as "either or" rather it is a spectrum. Someone may start casually, develop a passion and from there be heading towards addiction if left unchecked.

poker2wife2:

The thing is is that poker became over-sold as a bright, shiny thing when Internet poker came along and the big prize money tournaments became a hit on TV. The fact is is that poker can be beaten and some people make a lot of money at it but the majority of winning players don't really make enough to support a family and the VAST majority of even winning players can't handle the emotional toll properly on themselves much less if they've got a family as well.

Before Internet poker, where players are sitting at games w/ software that makes their screens look more like day-traders than poker players, and before the TV tournament phenomenon, claiming poker as your profession wouldn't be considered something to be proud of. But once those things came along poker suddenly became respectable in the eyes of many. In a way it is, in a way it's not, but I wouldn't drag along a family if I were 'chasing the dream' as so many of the players put it.

OMG....who is the OP? Is this MY wife? Scary

Actually, lol, I had to ask my wife if she posted this! Just changing a few details, but most ofr the solid points are right.

In all sincerity I feel your pain, not exactly swure what to say -maybe he's just going through a mid-life?

best wishes...

Under the radar,
Nope, my husband hasn't asked me if I posted anything, and I didn't protect me or him by alterating any details. So I guess your safe but I empathize with your wife unfortunately.

Howard,
I understand and agree with your analysis of the changing nature of the poker world and how few are professionals and many just wish they were.

See Thomas Howl,
You hit it head on, my husband says that he is doing what he loves but he is the most depressed person I know. Many of my friends and their husbands have jobs that are not their dream jobs, including myself, but we are no where near as down as he is. Really tells you that living apart from your values takes its toll no matter what.

I've always been very careful to encourage him and discourage the behavior. In our marriage we have never called each other names or belittled each other. He knows no one more solidly in his corner or more rooting for his happiness and success. Two counselors told us that we don't have a marriage problem, he has a compulsive gambling problem and problems from a crappy childhood. The counselor and I have suggested that he take 30 days away from poker and he flat out refused. And you are correct in saying that I need to threaten to leave him to snap him back to reality. The problem is with everything he's done over the years, I don't know that me seeking divorce at this point is just a threat, I have an appointment next week with an attorney. I am sad to admit that I can better face my future, both financially and emotionally, without him in it at this point. I've told him for years that with him gone 3-4 nights a week, as well as 7-10 travel days on poker trips per month, that I feel like a single mother without the right or ability to date. Because honestly, he's been so checked out with his family and our future that even when he was home, he really wasn't with us. I'm sure I am just one tragic story of many at this point. My prayer is that my son doesn't grow up to be like him. I think there is value in your soul with hard work. I get it that poker is grueling and demanding and exhausting. I just don't think that people who value hard work chose poker as a profession, the dream is the easy life. The reality is the grind.

I will share your champanzee metaphor because I find it so relevant.

Howard,
Quick question, I'm not up on the lingo what is meant by B & M poker?

BTW- my husband tried playing mostly days for a while, on his own accord. He was far too unsuccessful and had to take money too often from the person who backed him and resented me for it, pretty much went broke. He resented me for requiring him to contibute money towards bills, (I asked for $500/week after 3 years of providing next to zero). So that backfired.

Anyway, thank you all for your responses. It really is cathartic right now.

B&M stands for 'brick and mortar', an actual casino/poker room often referred to as 'playing live.'

The main (and very important) difference between a pro B&M player and a pro online player is that the online player will be at home and can log-off at once when his family needs him and re-sit when convenient.

That last part should have an asterick bec there are prime online playing hours also and will vary depending on where in the world the player lives.

@ poker2wife2

I'm very sorry. I've been there (as far as ending a marriage) and it's sad when you realize you dont have anything more to give. But believe me, everything will be alright. And eventually, youll be happier. You sound like a nice person. Wish you the best.

sth

I'm confused.....
He is saying he makes $100/hr
Is this true? If not what is his av winrate?

It seems to me your husband isn't good at financial planning. If you have a family with kids and no money in the bank nor poker bankroll and you are 40 then you are a degenerate. With a family and kids the #1 goal would be to support them and #2 is everything else. I'm currently 22 and building up a bankroll to play professionally. I have a projected plan and by the time I get around to having a family I will have money in savings, property and a steady income from
Poker+ investments. You can easily be a good father/husband and play poker for a living. You just need good planning. It sucks that you got the more unprofessional end of the stick when it comes to having a pro poker player as your significant other. Poker is just another job, and it's up to the personality of the player to handle it their own way. Skill is my the only factor to being a winning player. Poker needs to be treated as a business and many different factors apply such as money management ( having savings which are separate from bankroll for example), time management( set hours and times to play do you can balance your family life and job), self control, goals, projections, ect. Have your husband make an excellent sheet to see what his hourly rate is after a month if play and see if that's an income you can support your family on ( I assume it isn't). After that he should get a normal job with benefits and suck it up. You can't be selfish in his position unless you're a scumbag plain and simple. With a family and kids to feed you're not your first priority, they are.

Skill is not the only factor***

In his original post he states:

"My thinking - in summary - is 1. I love this, 2. I'm good at it(its profitable to the tune of $100/hr) and 3. if its the amount of time that I'm putting in which is her concern, we can negotiate it. Now that online poker is not available anymore, it would be restricted to the occasional live tourney anyways."

So the responses from people are all assuming that #2 is correct and he is bringing in lots of cash.
If this is not the case then you would not have those replys that struck a nerve with you.

What if he started a thread saying that he loves poker and quit his 100K job to play more, well it turns out he's not so great and is making $10-20/ hr and is never home with his family.
Everybody would tell him he is an idiot and to go get his job back and support his family.

I think that you're mixing up this thread w/ the linked one that OP posted.

How so?

I thought this thread was her being pissed that he got support for his crazy actions in previous thread (poker vs wife).

Not saying she is wrong in any of her complaints, just pointing out that her husband maybe wasn't %100 truthful in HIS OP and hence got a skewed reaction from 2+2.

Is there a pokerwife forum somewhere?
I'm mid-thirties, married, have a 3 year old, work full time, and play live poker too much too sometimes, my wife is always pissed when I come home at 3am when I said I would be home at 10pm ect ect
There's gotz to be millions of them out there...frustrated, angry, feeling rejected and hates the game that took their husband away.
Worst of all they never really know where we are, which is why she jokes that I am going to POKE-HER.

your husband sounds like an addicted fish. your situation does not seem to be much different from a ton of other wives that have a husband with a gambling problem.

therefore, have you tried getting help from people who have experiences with gamblers? If you have, what did they say? did you do a therapy yourself about if you are co-addicted?

Unfourtunately he probably won't change. It's very hard to break a gambling problem. I used to play a lot of scratch tickets, blackjack, and craps. The only thing that changed my mind was learning the math behind the house's edge. Now the only games I play are poker or rotating deal blackjack.

I don't see much chance of him solving this problem, even with all the love and support you seem to be providing. I estimate a less than 5% chance of him changing. There is a way to give him a 40-60% chance of recovery. You should study one of the games he claims to be good at. Then challenge him to a heads up match. You win, he quits. He wins, he's free to ruin his life if he wants. If he's any good he'll realize that he has at best a 60% chance of winning, but he'll also realize that he's going to lose you if he declines. If he values his family(which is your only hope) he may accept. If he thinks he's unbeatable he'll probably accept. Of course there are pitfalls here that may be unavoidable, but I don't see any other way to increase his chances of recovery.

Call me a troll if you want but I'd be surprised if any other advice can give a better than 5% chance of recovery. Good luck.