The idea is a bad one with regards to running a successful business in this industry. Even if we assume all the players kept it in their pants while on camera, the regs would hate the slowness of the games it would create (along with the severe table restriction), and the recs who want to play poker casually for 10 minutes tend to have no interest in being filmed as they play.

Aside from some fringe rooms that failed, no significant poker room has ever pushed this out as even an idea, and I doubt the concept of webcams is that unknown to them, so not quite sure what else to say to you on this other than what was said above - if you strongly believe in this idea then try to find a company that will do it and see how it works. Real Deal Poker started in the same manner, so it is possible for these things to happen.

Another tourney where i shouldve made final table, but ofcurse bad beat after cooler after cooler. Someone needs to investigate this site.

Im writing hands down and im going to find out the truth, no one else is going to do it so i will, its going to be a pain in the ass, if theres a mathematicall abormality on this site, how do i take in account of how many players on in the hand? Or should i just write down the % of bad beats hit the river? Depending on player count?

It has been stated here many times. The coolers, bad beats and suckouts are because we are playing with people who don't know what the hell they're doing. They stay in the hand with bottom pair and inside str8 draws when faced with huge bets when they should be folding. They go all the way to the river and catch. You must adjust your game. Small ball poker.
Oh, and by the way only arrogant poker players think they should be making the final table of every tournament.

im going to just check specific bad beats that are heads up on the turn and keep track of only that, so for example what im going to do is only track heads up play on the turn, and see what percentage of bad beats happen on the river during heads up.

100% guaranteed this would still happen - the massive rigged thread in Internet Poker is evidence of that.

If you still don't understand why some people are against this, you may want to reread the last few pages of this thread, as there has been a lot of discussion of both the pros and cons of complete hand histories.

Everything you've posted so far would seem to indicate that you have an inadequate understanding of statistics and probability, and this post would seem to back that up. You'd likely be making much better use of your time doing some reading in our strategy and psychology forums and improving your play and mindset. But if you really want to go down this road, I'd suggest sharing your concerns and asking about data gathering and analysis here:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/25/probability/

But I'll start with one tip - focusing on something as vague as "% of bad beats" isn't going to yield much in the way of useful data.

Even I am not mean enough to hurl that guy toward the stats forum .

He should create a personal thread in the blogging forum to whine as he likes or post his unremarkable bad beat stories in the bad beat forum

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...rags-variance/

where he will get even more support of sorts.

Dont understand probability? Im probably a better player than 95% on this forum, im not saying that too brag, but when you say i dont understand probability and the mathematics of poker that annoyed me because im constantly doing the math in my head when im playing.

And im getting really annoyed that im complaining so it must be a strategy problem, even though i make my living from live and my ROI is over 100% on this site, but no, its just that im a losing player and thats why im complaining
l

Did you read my recent post? You need hand histories. You need your hands and the specific hands of villains that go to showdown. If you have a hypothesis, it can be tested, but not without hand histories.

You've made a very convincing argument against this claim.

If you think you can come to conclusions about a site being rigged after just a few days, and then conclude it's not rigged after a good tournament result, and then conclude it's rigged again after just a few days, some kind of understanding is missing.

Now whether your understanding of probability is poor, or your mindset is such that you're ignoring your knowledge of probability, I couldn't say for sure. But one of them is off, that's for certain.

I wouldn't know if you have any strategy problems, but I doubt there's a poker player out there who couldn't improve their play. My suggestion was simply that I think there are better ways to use your time than obsessing over your bad beats.

Oh just flopped another full house and rivered quads, thats 7 quads for the day, and whats up with pp hitting there sets at a very high rate?

Dont worry though, my oppenent busted me the next hand with the gut shot straight that hit the river, LOL THIS IS SO SICK

matt, this isn't your blog, and we don't need daily updates on your experiences - we have other forums for that.

live poker is rigged too.

I recently moved to Florida, have played at the Isle twice and the high hand has been a royal 8 times. I've seen quads dealt 3 different times in one 30 minute down in this room.

The RNG is clearly rigged at the Isle.

This is just to reinforce the fact that you should stop posting this BS. Unless you are going to post reasonable evidence to support your views.

I am 95% sure he will not agree with you.

Today is the 27th - that means 7 quads directed "2" you. Sheesh, you say you do math in your head when you play, but you miss the simple stuff like this.

All the best.

First off, no insult to you Sound. We have talked a lot in the past, I know your motives here are to help. And for sure I don't think you are playing outside your bankroll. Those comments aren't aimed at you, never were, not sure why it has to be taken as I meant it for you.

The only comment really aimed at you was the "many" thing, which I think you can agree is fuzzy language at best. Spats are not helpful, not trying to start one.

Perhaps I should have split my post into a few posts to make it clear it wasn't aimed at you, but I also didn't think you would take it as a personal offense. I will be more clear in the future.

I also aimed the comment to you of "What good is being done" but even that is from the side of I am concerned for how much you invest into all of this Sound. But there isn't any reason to drag that out here in the forums, I think you know to what I refer and I don't really care if anyone else understands.

No, I accuse people of being arrogant because they believe they are bringing something new to the table after 60+ pages of the same arguments they have always been making.

"I haven't read all of this, but look at this idea I had" as if someone before hadn't had it. That is arrogance. Don't get me wrong, I am arrogant at times myself. This isn't name calling as much as it is pointing out, if you are going to engage, the be informed, and don't lay the burden on those of us who have read through the arguments here to clarify a position to you that has long ago been debated. So it isn't name calling as much as it is criticism of an attitude I see. By the way, not just in this forum either. That is not a 2+2 thing, its a people and internet thing.

Not sure why you don't understand my position on hand histories, I thought it was pretty clear in my post. I am not as sure it will be a good thing as other people are, and you can't go back once you go forward, so we need to be REALLY sure its a good thing. That's my argument. Especially because even if we had them, people would still claim there were issues, so we end up back here again. I don't see the ROI on hand history downloads as being positive, and even if it is, I haven't yet to be convinced it is REALLY positive.

In response to your summary as to my supposed "two options", I like strawmen arguments too, but for sure my argument is more nuanced than you are portraying. I leave that to the reader, (or the non-reader as the case sadly sometimes is.)

Finally, Sound poker, I get along fine with you. I wouldn't have engaged with you as much as I have in the past if I didn't. No insults here are directed at you. Criticism, for sure, but even then not in a personal attack way, but in have you considered the view points way. Hopefully that makes sense. We agree completely on not needing personal attacks. I apologize if the way I wrote the post made you feel it was a personal attack, it wasn't intended that way at all.

Maybe you should post the replays of the 7 quads and non stop bad beats you complain about. I have taken many bad beats that are insane too and want to go somewhere and complain about the nonsense I just witnessed. i don't do that I wait a day and am over it because I was just tilting and my brain thinks craziness when tilting. Reality is a lot of bad beats are going to happen in poker. Also you said it want rigged the other day after winning. I know other players like that, it's a great totally legit site when winning but soon they start losing its rigged and a total scam

The downloadable hand history topic is a valid one, with some points that can be made on both sides, and I would genuinely suggest someone start that as a separate topic with the caveat that riggie nonsense (wah wah too many quads how can I prove it) not be a part of that debate, because that would only distract from the legitimate reasons for (collusion detection) and against (would change the nature of the game as people could then use database software and potentially HUDs).

Splaya,

Agree.... no ill will, you are a good guy. I certainly don't need to degrade you (or anyone else) to have input here. I think we've both lived enough to engage in debate without it, even if some here can't seem to.

Let me put it this way.... what if GP could offer personal, searchable player stats for our OWN play?

Let's just start there.

Instead of clunky hand histories like now... what if we had access to how many hands we've played, what we did at each position, results of each.... how many times we've been dealt xyz, customizable search parameters. Let's say they were offered in a format that wasn't downloadbale. (Via some coding option, let's assume that's possible.)

I can't think of one single service, game, utility that I am a part of right now.... from games.... to my phone bill... to my online banking that doesn't offer this basic necessity.
I'm not talking about other players.... just your own personal data.

Can you think of a reason this couldn't... or shouldn't be offered?

Exactly. I don’t need hand histories. Just give me different ways to query up my own stats like PT4 offers. Doesn’t have to be nearly as fancy. Just some basic features would be nice.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

define bad beat? people throw that term around so loosely these days.

I can totally see the need to have that topic outside of the RNG thread, as it can get lost in here, and for sure it can get lost in the noise.

I still see it in the sliding scale of what is good and bad overall for the game. So I like your suggestion the best of all I have seen, especially if we further obscure other players by putting their relative position (CO, UTG, BTN) than there screen names or even random IDs.

But even with these protections in place, it still isn't impossible to reverse this data, if you knew who was at the table when the hands took place. Data can still be accumulated in this manner as well. Now, it will slow down the collection a lot. Because now you can only get what you participated in. And you can further obscure it by combining table data together was well, so you would need to weed through which table you were at with which hands and which players.

But I want to continue to stress this point, it is still possible to use this data for what we don't want, collection of data on other players.

The argument I am making is we should know this to be true and then see if the benefit outweighs the cost. This is how life works, you should always be looking to make sure the benefit outweighs the cost.

And because once Global (if they did) starts offering downloads of histories, they could never go back. Imagine the howls if they offered it, and then took it away.

So then we need to be as near to certain as we can be that the benefit really outweighs the cost. This is difficult to do, and I point out how many "good laws" were passed in our country to find out, many of them had very unintended unwanted consequences. There are plenty of bad laws too, don't get me wrong. But even when people are at their best, they do a very poor job of anticipating consequences for actions. All I am ever trying to encourage in this conversation is the underlying principle:

Be very careful what you ask for, you just might get it

There's only two sides of the fence. On one side are players who cheat and a site that is rigged. On the other side are players who use stats or READS on player to play better. It's impossible to COMPLETELY satisfy both concerns so the best and most successful site will be the one that finds the best MIDDLE GROUND.

While I understand that some players have concerns about HUDS, what I have trouble understanding is why those concerns would be HIGHER in priority and concern than the other side of the fence: cheating by the players and the site.

To ensure BOTH the players AND the site are not cheating, you have to have had histories. Period. If anyone argues against that, then you are basically saying that you are ok that players AND the site cheats. That should be unacceptable to everyone.

To me, you mitigate the HUD risk two ways:

- Make it illegal in the TOS which it already is
- Delay the release of hand histories to a week or two

That should be PLENTY of protection against HUDS. Most reputable software companies like HEM and PT4 won't make a HUD if it's against the TOS. And, if someone makes their own HUD anyway, it would be on a week or two delay and its effectiveness would go down tremendously.

But to try to eliminate HUDS at every cost INCLUDING allowing cheating by both the players AND the site is just stupid if you are a player who isn't cheating. The only people who should actually want to hide hand histories are CHEATERS or a CHEATING SITE. A good, successful, honest site should want to do everything it could do to prevent cheaters and present its site as fair and transparent.

I feel obligated to come back and post.

I've played many more hands since my last post itt. I'm playing lower than normal because I don't trust the site. That would explain some of the tremendously bad play I've seen from some of the regulars. And those same regulars seem to be winning quite a bit. So it's safe to assume the games are just really soft. It feels like a live game which is exactly what players want and what sites strive for. So good job at global poker for creating that kind of atmosphere.

That said I'm still skeptical (yet more positive than I was in my previous posts itt). I just can't wrap my head around the fact that I'm only up maybe ~3bi when I should be up around 25-30.

Not providing hand histories and getting rid of dealer hand histories in chat is unfortunately the only way to discourage botting. And frankly we should all be much more concerned with bots than with RNG