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Grand Tournament Card Discussion Grand Tournament Card Discussion

08-15-2015 , 09:54 PM
50% more dmg is not worse

better comparison is Arcane Golem. Which it might be worse than, demonfuse is more mana efficient but you need a demon on board. I could see a deck running both Arcane Golems and Demonfuse tho.
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08-15-2015 , 10:02 PM
how can you compare these 3 cards?

demonfire cant hit minions and 100% worthless without board.

demonfire kills minions with no downside, arcane golem is amazing for face
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08-15-2015 , 10:09 PM
I'm not comparing demonfire to arcane golem, I'm saying that demonfuse should be used like arcane golem, not demonfire. The only question is whether you'll have a demon on board often enough.
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08-15-2015 , 10:43 PM
its still only worse than demonfire even if you have a demon 90+ % of the time

Last edited by Kirbynator; 08-15-2015 at 10:48 PM.
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08-16-2015 , 01:48 AM
Alright, time for Shaman. Shaman has been in a bad spot for a while - lack of complete board wipes has prevented true control, the midrange keeps getting punished by having to spend too many resources vs front half aggression and typically not having the oomph to finish games, and although the aggro is the one viable (current) ladder deck, as far as aggro decks are concerned it's still roughly 3rd behind Paladin and Hunter.

Blizzard, knowing how downtrodden Shaman has been, appears to have thrown them a bone. Although I'm not sure if they have gotten the *best* TGT cards, they are certainly in the mix. A new archetype - the totem Shaman - perhaps has enough firepower to draw serious consideration, the old Malygos OTK has made some strides, and thanks to a newfangled AOE, it appears a total control Shaman may even be possible. I used to play a considerable amount of the midrange, and now whenever I play it (or the bloodlust "combo" version) it just feels so weak I quickly stop playing it.



I think this was the first card revealed, and it is certainly one of the brightest from the batch. There isn't much to add except in the few games that were played in front of 100k people or whatever involving Shaman, the players had difficulty curving with this because they wanted to play Tuskar Totemic on 3. I wonder how this will be addressed, because it certainly made for clunkiness. Worth noting this was the one "Shredder buff" 2 drop.



A pretty standard draw 2 card. A lot of classes have this mechanic, just each one has it in different ways. (Priest thoughtsteal, Rogue burgle, Paladin Solemn Vigil, Mage arcane intellect, obv druids have it bundled into AoL, warlocks have the hero power, hunters SORTA through tracking, warriors have shield block which is a draw 1 less for more life gain) For shaman, it's directly the cheapest but has a backend cost, which also will make it on average the most expensive card.

But if you need something immediately, it allows you to draw->and play something that turn, which has a small tempo advantage.

All in all, it's a reasonable card if you're seeking to build a Shaman deck w/o mana tides (still decent) or azure drakes (pretty dependable). In the Malygos OTK I will definitely play 2 of these, and I imagine in a non-totem Shaman deck I may swap mana tides for this card.

Basically, it fits a lot of archetype and in many ways it's exactly what Shaman needed.



Kirb explained this one very well when it came out, and is almost positively in the top-5 TGT cards released. It is THE CARD that should make the totem shaman archetype competitive, (IF it's competitive) and even if it isn't, probably will see play in midrange shaman solely for THE VALUE. Happy about it.



Also been discussed - a truly fun card. My belief, and I believe this strongly, is it doesn't belong in any non-gimmicky deck. (Even if that gimmicky deck, like a OTK malygos, is strong) It compares directly to healing touch from Druid (3 mana/8 health) so unless you stack the joust component, it is directly worse than healbot.

Buuuuut in the decks that only run a few minions, wow... 14 lifegain on 3 mana, jeeze.



The other card Shaman badly needed. It allows/opens up the control shaman archetype, and I think midrange can probably run 1. (Something like 1 lightning storm/1 elemental destruction, but maybe they just throw out storms for destruction. I'm really not sure!)

One minor question I have is, with all these overload cards... Does unbound elemental make a triumphant return? At one point it was a very solid/good 3 drop. It got completely phased out due to not enough good overload cards. The pendulum is swinging back.



This card has *also* been discussed. I don't buy it even in a strictly totem shaman deck, but who knows. Probably not good enough, just play shredders.



Oh man am I pinging back and forth on this one. On one hand, Shamans are kinda built around their hero power, with defender of arguses and flametongues and that sort of thing. But on the other, if you sack off the weapon (it truly doesn't care getting oozed!) 2 point pings are suuuper useful.

The main archetype this makes sense is control shaman, where you really would like to utilize your hero power to control the board rather than build (useless?) totems. I just wonder about the interaction with justicar trueheart!



I've given my thoughts on this one before, as well. Directly compares to QM, it's a solid minion but like the other inspires just isn't all that inspiring. It should fit in a totem shaman deck for obvious reasons, but in a standard midrange I flatout dont see how it makes the cut over belchers or drakes or loatheb etc.



In a suuuuper slow deck, sure. Like, this could be the basis, more or less, for the control shaman. But I'm on the opposite fence on this card than Kirby/other 2p2ers who have weighed in. It's like SoJ (which does NOT get played) attached to a weak body. Also, if you draw it late, you're kinda screwed. And it's hard to play it on curve early. Which puts it in a very delicate position!
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08-16-2015 , 02:07 AM
Ah, Hunter. I go back and forth between which class I dislike more - Mage or Hunter. To me they are often the least interactive, they typically field more aggro decks and face smash more than usual, and the combo mage decks are the least fun decks in the game to play against and play yourself. (Freeze mage ugh)

Figured I'd do Hunter 8th since the midrange is a strong deck that almost washes off the cancer smell, and I've played enough ladder games with it to give the class its due diligence. As far as archetypes, the 3 established types are pure face hunter (SMOrc), the hybird (90-95% SMOrc), and midrange (like 80%+ SMOrc). Some people have dabbled with Feign Death hunter (fun, somewhat competitive, but not truly viable) as well as "anti meta" decks like Deathlord hunter.

Technically beast hunter and trap hunter are sorta decks that have existed in the past, but Beast Hunter is just the midrange with not that many beasts, and trap hunter is ingrained in the existing archetypes with scientists and eaglehorn bow for obvious synergy. Bliz does seem to be pushing Beast Hunter a bit.



It's one of these cards which could see play in face hunter. It is strictly worse than Leper Gnome and Abusive, imo, but along the same tier as argent squire, clockwork gnome, worgen, etc. Meaning, it could crack the very efficient and developed face cancer decks, but it certainly doesn't seem overpowered.

I'm not buying this as some sort of win condition in a long game control hunter that starts DOUBLING DOWN on sick hero powers on turn 10 or w/e. Lol that.



In ANY OTHER CLASS, this card would be the nuts. A 3/2 card that draws 1!!! (Think about it in Druid, that is insane) It's also a beast. The reality however is the mana curve of hunter decks doesn't lend itself to jousting, so you have to create a new archetype with a slower curve to reap the rewards. And with that said, I'm not really sure it fits anywhere, even though independently its strong.



Been there / covered that. I'm very anti-Lock and Load, everyone thinks this card will rock and I think it'll suck. At a minimum, it does appear to push Hunter in a different direction, which I appreciate.



A competitive trap. You need your opponent to push face to trigger it, (smart players typically set off traps when it is convenient and correct for them to do so, even if they make mistakes from time to time) but it's the sorta thing that's EITHER a massive tempo gain (get it off scientist, have them push face, woops, new 3/3 on board to take the spot of the scientist) OR it's a very slow card that doesn't get triggered until the 3/3 has very little impact on the board state.

It seems to me like it could be a 1-off in a midrange deck instead of a snake trap or something like that, as its a nice anti-aggro card (it deals with face decks well, typically 2 for 1ing or thereabout) but it doesn't seem super overpowered to me. Makes no sense in a rush deck given opponents are often dealing with board and opting NOT to attack face for fear of explosive trap.



Cute card. Way to evaluate this is basically:
1. If you never have a beast, it's a 4/2 3 mana. This isn't good enough stat-wise.
2. If you ALWAYS have a beast, it's like a 4/2 3 mana argent protector. (Immune means they can't die, but the beasts still take damage? So it's a little worse than divine shield?)

For a different kind of beast midrange deck this perhaps could see play. The main problem is the beasts these decks run on 2 are Haunted Creepers, which dont really trade super well, so giving them immunity isn't massive. And if you hold it for a combo later, it's not even that great. (Imagine it on an unleash the hound or w/e) I don't expect hunters to reintroduce Bloodfen Raptors solely for this card's sake, so it wont really make the cut.



Wow, a hunter anti aggro card. Legendary, at that. This card is trash against Grim Patron (lolol...) but seems primed as the anti paladin/anti hunter card. It plucks off divine shields, kills stealthed minions, knocks off totems... I can totally see playing this in a midrange deck. (Deals with muster soooo well)

Damaging your own minions seems to be a problem bc hunter gets 0 synergy or use out of enrage mechanics, so maybe this is more of a drawback than people realize. (Hounds, snakes, haunted spiders, etc. all die to the mini Baron Geddon)



An efficient removal spell. 3 mana / 6 damage (vs 4 mana 6 of a fireball or whatnot) with the downside it's spread across 3 minions, positioning matters, AND it cant go face.

Explosive Shot isn't ever really played (outside some very specific tournament decks) and this is kinda a poorman's Explosive Shot. I suppose Thalnos/powershot deals with a board of Patrons really well, but cmon. I don't imagine spell power Hunter is going to be a thing.



This card has been discussed, and flatout, I'm not sure how strong the average beast is so I can't really evaluate it. It obviously only fits into the "beast hunter" archetype (the current midrange MAY have enough beasts to support this card, but houndmaster is better and sometimes only 1 is run) and the 5 spot is so competitive that in hunter decks typically only Loatheb is the auto-include.



Awesome card, wrong class. Has been covered, IF a control Hunter emerges this card could see play, but I'm going to heavily bet against that happening.



This legendary is total filth. Not sure why it's 7 mana. It could be 4 mana and it still wouldn't be good.
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08-16-2015 , 02:15 AM
friendly mention to power of the wild that everyone forgets is a potential small druid beast (and a better card than wildwalker imo), which could enable cards like cobra on curve.

*Also I hadnt thought too much about it, but looking back at shaman cards i think theres a very real chance that lava shock becomes a really standard card in shaman. (esp if unbound / feral spirit comeback and obviously the mega overload aoe)


**i dont think you take damage from immune, its the same bubble as malganis on your hero

Last edited by Kirbynator; 08-16-2015 at 02:27 AM.
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08-16-2015 , 02:24 AM
Mage. Yes, my least favorite class. More so than Hunter. Currently, mages have a bunch of viable archetypes... And yet they leave a bad taste in my mouth. You have the combo decks (mainly Freeze Mage, which has been around forever, but you can add some mill mages, echo mages, and even dragon mages into the mix), the control mage (which is more or less called Grinder Mage), mech mage (the strongest mech version along with mech shaman) tempo mage (which mainly features flamewaker), and so on. So, that's cool.

Bliz really should have done something that made the new cards terrible arena cards but good constructed cards. Difficult to do that (make the dependent on synergy, I think) but they didn't. Anyway...



When I FIRST saw the card, my mind exploded about the possibility of a Malygos OTK deck featuring this card. But then I read a bit closer, and it specified MINION ONLY.

Because no real current mage deck runs a lot of spell damage (some run Thalnos I guess, or drakes) this card isn't really that great. Yeah, you can imagine Malygos comboing with this to take down a ragnaros or something for 1 mana, but it's weak removal and isn't good enough.



Has been covered; prettttty sure it's a super strong arena card, but doesn't fit in a constructed deck. (Basically the opposite of what I wished)



Some people were saying this could fit in tempo mage, given they run out of cards first much faster so it's ALMOST like a draw one, plus they run spell synergy with apprentices/mana wyrms/flame wakers, which get a natural advantage from playing ANY spell. So yeah, I'm convinced, maybe it'll earn a spot. But the 3 hole is kinda congested in that deck and this card doesn't strike me as OP, so other than that not really seeing a home.



Summon huffer? Yep!



The strongest mage card revealed, outside of perhaps the legendary. Wow. Fits into a bunch of archetypes (tempo, grinder) so its hard not to like it immediately. If you like mage. If you don't like mage, hard not to dislike it immediately. I immediately dislike it.



Repeating myself 100 times: The inspire effect is cool but not that impactful and too slow. It's a totally meh vanilla 3/5, Senjin is better and isn't in too many mage decks, this card wont bump anything out.



Who needs BGH when you have Flame Lance!? Oh yeah, oops, it's 2 more mana than BGH. Uhh... I guess it deals with 6/8s well. Along with the warlock give an opponent a mana crystal, one of the worst cards released.



I like that it's a dragon, and that the text is flavorful, but it doesn't really fit anywhere right now. This isn't to say it can't join Dragon mage and be the star, but it's a slow-ish 6/6 for 6 which is a bit understated.



People keep saying if it was battlecry vs deathrattle it would be OP, and I agree. It's still really good though. Not exactly positive where it fits right now, but it seems to have fringe sense in tempo mage, perhaps freeze mage, and the possibilities with 3 cheap arcane missiles opens the door to other whacky combos, like with malygos.
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08-16-2015 , 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirbynator
Also I hadnt thought too much about it, but looking back at shaman cards i think theres a very real chance that lava shock becomes a really standard card in shaman.
They ran it during the live stream, so it seems Blizzard wants that to be a thing.

Last edited by Bremen; 08-16-2015 at 02:39 AM. Reason: stupid filter
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08-16-2015 , 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos

This legendary is total filth. Not sure why it's 7 mana. It could be 4 mana and it still wouldn't be good.
if it was 4 mana the combo with dreadscale would be pretty damn op
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08-16-2015 , 02:42 AM
I love how hunters have the absolute worst legendaries. It's really hard to rely on combos when you can only run 1 of legendaires.
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08-16-2015 , 02:46 AM
dreadscale is one of the best cards D:
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08-16-2015 , 02:50 AM
nope. It's a good card tho.
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08-16-2015 , 02:55 AM
it'd be amazing in warrior!

from sneeds probably
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08-16-2015 , 03:10 AM
Imagine the reddit tears if that was the legendary warrior got.
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08-16-2015 , 03:21 AM
still goot tho ill definitely make a ****roll hunter
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08-16-2015 , 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobboFitos
I just wonder about the interaction with justicar trueheart!
Justicar only replaces your original hero power, so if you are Jaraxxus or Shadowformed it doesn't do anything.
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08-16-2015 , 09:49 AM
i just made it past the shaman cards and first of al thanks a lot for doing this bobbo. that must have been a ton of work. so far i agree with you on allmost every card, especially on the shaman and druid legendary. i disagre with you on the paladin legendary i think it will propably be allright but i think paladin has better ways of dealing with an out of controll boardstate and it will often end up just hitting one big guy and maybe a small or medium sized threat and its just not going to be that impactfull. while the best case scneario for this card is insanely good i believe the average play you will make with it will not be great.
i am also more optimistic about mulch. i think its very good. compare it to sap its one mana more but so much better.

edit: ok finished it. very good review. i am not sold on the mage legenday at this point. i think its too slow. we could play a boom or rag in that slot and i think i would do that allmost always.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirbynator

*Also I hadnt thought too much about it, but looking back at shaman cards i think theres a very real chance that lava shock becomes a really standard card in shaman. (esp if unbound / feral spirit comeback and obviously the mega overload aoe)
yeahz i was saying that since lavashok got revealed. its not strong yet, but it will most likelly become a stabble. i think it has the potential to become game breaking at some point or at least a future card people can bitch about beeing op.
i think arcane communion is in the same spot this time. not playable atm but you wait and watch. fun things might happen.

Last edited by donjonnie; 08-16-2015 at 10:08 AM.
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08-16-2015 , 10:39 AM
I wonder if someone will get an astral communion + inspire/draw deck to work.
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08-16-2015 , 01:56 PM
I'm really surprised that they introduced inspire and made almost no great inspire cards. There are a few that will be weaved into decks but it's pretty underwhelming from what I was expecting.
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08-16-2015 , 02:05 PM
I don't think the random minion from Mulch is worth very much. A random minion is more often than not going to be a dead card until the recipient has run out of gas. It will occasionally hurt decks that worry about overdrawing.

I think it's probably in the ballpark of a .5 mana benefit to the opponent.
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08-16-2015 , 02:45 PM
Mulch is like a better Sap. For 1 mana more I turn Sylvanas into a random ****ing minion in his hand! Card is insane (just like sap is insane) and should see a lot of play.

Think about it.

Last edited by DoGGz; 08-16-2015 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Yes, there is no silence but often times that doesn't matter.
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08-16-2015 , 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz
Mulch is like a better Sap. For 1 mana more I turn Sylvanas into a random ****ing minion in his hand! Card is insane (just like sap is insane) and should see a lot of play.

Think about it.
While you have a valid point Sylvanas may not be the best example since Sap avoids the Deathrattle.
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08-16-2015 , 04:02 PM
Mulch is a great tempo card, but so was Naturalize.
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08-16-2015 , 04:59 PM
The problem was that Druid never wanted to play that game. There is two ways to look at cards. 1) Is this card good? and 2) Can I use this card in a deck right now?

Mulch might not find its way into a druid deck but it's a good card. Random minion is way way different than 2 specific cards for that deck.
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