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Originally Posted by wil318466
I think this thread shows a lot more about the people posting in it than toothsayer himself. You simply have to read his posts and come up with an honest assessment. Calling a person who isn't white a white supremacist is just loltastic.
There's a fairly reasonable argument that TS' views are similar if not indistinguishable from the views of avowed white supremacists. For example (and note that I'm snipping posts for brevity. Click through for context)
On European Supremacy / Support for White Nationalism
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
Can you name a religion or culture that has reformed itself into something more enlightened, that isn't Christian European? As far as I can see, it's never happened. The Chinese and Japanese were barbaric toward their neighbors and their own people (the Chinese still harbor a deep racism and pride that has yet to disappear; the Japanese were only subdued and reeducated by America occupation post WWII), Americans Indians and South Americans were truly brutal to one another, Africa was a hellhole, Hindu India was a hellhole (and still is), and Muslim lands had a widespread culture of slavery and treating women as chattels. Perhaps the Buddhists alone had a civilized culture, and their influence didn't spread far. Perhaps the Jews are another (tiny minority) success story, but they were deeply embedded in Europe. Even worse, in some areas, religion was replaced with the repressive horrors of secular communism.
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
The Western/Christian world:
- Ended slavery (most of which was done by Muslims)
- Emancipated women
- Protected children from exploitation
- Developed secular laws
- Created self determination
- Voluntarily gave up the power to rule the entire world easily if it wanted.
The West is far from perfect, but it leaves all others in the dust. Especially the Muslim world. If you don't agree with that, you either don't know much history, or your brain is broken.
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
So I followed your advice and have googled it. It seems there are few if any arguments against white nationalism. All the attempts to argue against it quickly skip over it and pretend that white nationalism = white supremacy/KKK (the beliefs that whites are inherently superior), and to tar it as far as possible with that brush. But they are obviously distinct things.
White nationalism (or more accurately, Western nationalism, as skin color is irrelevant), is the idea that Westerners on average have cultural levels of education, civic-mindedness, personal responsibility, conscientiousness, etc and general Enlightenment type values, as a core cultural trait. And that this is lacking or lessened in many other cultures (East Asians being a prominent exception, who perhaps hold many of these values to an even higher degree than many Westerners).
The idea is that if you import cultures who don't strongly subscribe to these values, or have their own views of the world, tolerant, Enlightenment type culture erodes. Thus I contrast Canada and the United States. Or point you to how the far right is rising in Europe - a terrifying thing if it continues - solely because of the immigration of people with extremely non-Western values.
Do you think this is a fair commentary, or is this all extremely bigoted and racist to you? Do you believe that say, Middle Eastern Muslim culture, is identical to Korean culture, or do you think there are differences (e.g. in work ethic, in how women are treated)? Do you think these differences are likely to have an impact on how these groups integrate and productively contribute to their new countries?
Demonization of Muslims
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
Honestly, I didn't even consider sub Saharan Africa. In some countries there 95% of people believe in witchcraft. Something like 60% in certain believe that sex with a virgin cures you of AIDS. So if you found the worst Christian country in the world in Africa, and it's less gay hating and persecuting than at least 10 Muslim countries, well I guess that's something. It's basically stone age, and always has been. Islam on the other hand sits in the cradle of civilization...
We've had tact while the world burns. When dealing with barbarians, tact achieves nothing but heads in the sand. Quite a few cities in Europe are hellholes now thanks to Muslim immigration, their centuries-old wonderful culture and enlightenment destroyed by a barbaric religion.
And yet you want to bring in people with these barbaric ideologies. It doesn't make sense.
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
5ve, Islam is full of caring for fellow (male) Muslims - and the murder and raping and slavery of non-Muslims. It's a misogynist xenophobic brotherhood of men - a lot like the KKK except the focus is on belief and not race.
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
You're an idiot, man. ISIS is the latest in a very long line of brutal Muslims waging Jihad to set up a caliphate, raping and beheading as they go.
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
I mentioned how Islam is a culture of mass child rape going back 1400 years, with plenty of evidence...
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
Islam is a sick cult of violence and forced submission - both of women and of non-Muslims.
Negative stereotypes of blacks, Jews, etc.
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
Being so quick to claim "antisemitism" is weird. Jews as a religious group have negative traits, as do Muslims. For example, a good portion of Jews - mostly orthodox - are bigoted and xenophobic and Jew Nationalist to a level that would make the most hardened redneck blush. This is specifically related to being a Jew; the religion teaches that Jews are God's chosen and special people, and that this land was given to them by God; this informs their worldview on sharing it and on acting reasonably. It's fair commentary whether you like it or not.
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
Should whitey be a slave for the black man, so he can enjoy his life of less work and less painful personal responsibility? And should well tell blacks that they're less economically successful because of racism, and not their culture?
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
By the way, it's black supremacists - encouraged by Obama - that are actually shooting people.
Support for "scientific" racism based on genetics
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
"It's just a social construct, guys. Therefore, your argument that I find uncomfortable is invalid."
Back in the real world, we're discussing whether things that cause crime as defined in this age (i.e. actual rapes, murders, assaults) can be partly caused by the genetics of perpetrators (they can - male DNA being one example), and how those genetics tend to cluster within certain populations, and if those differences are meaningful enough to produce more crime in populations with those clusters. That's what being discussed. You've built a nice little "social construct" fire and smoke screen there, but it's kind of sad you can't discuss this honestly.
We know it happens in other species, even where between-individual genetic diversity is greater than between-group genetic diversity. For example, dachshunds are naturally more aggressive than golden retrievers by a fairly large magnitude...
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
The party line is that it is certain that there are no genetic differences in cognition or behavioral traits between ethnic groups or races. This line is taken because to do the opposite, licenses racism.
Note: these are from a thread specifically about race and crime. The implication is that a genetic predisposition towards crime among African Americans shouldn't be dismissed. TS tends to demur towards explanations based in alleged "cultural problems" while hinting at the genetic explanation in posts like this:
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
There's zero evidence for this given our current genetic/cognitive science, but I suspect there's probably a genetic element to the German people's low level of empathy. They're very different to the French for example. It could be culture - hard to say at this stage.
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Originally Posted by ToothSayer
I have a problem with poor thinking, not the idea that all "races" are cognitively equal. It would be wonderful if they are all cognitively equal. If they are, vast and enduring social problems can disappear just by finding the right education programs/policies/cultural changes. If there's no significant difference between races, black people can one day be the Jews of society - disproportionately great thinkers, scientists, philosophers, businessmen. Just by making a few cultural changes.
Imagine how enriched US society be if the 13% that are black were as successful - scientifically, economically, in business - as the 2% that are Jews. If there's no cognitive difference between blacks and Jews, there's absolutely no reason that can't happen in a couple of generations.
It's meaningful that for TS explanations of racial inequality are always either cultural deficiencies or genetic deficiencies. It should also be noted that basing a belief in the superiority of whites or Europeans in "culture" is no less racist. It's not racist to recognize the role of culture in the formation of societies and the construction of various social problems, but it is racist to essentialize and reify culture in the over-generalized and unsupported way that TS does, while ignoring the very real and well-supported facts of historical racism, discrimination, and oppression. "Cultural racism" is still racism.
In any case, the purpose of pulling all these quotes together is to show the very clear pattern. For TS, European Christians are exalted, the one true force for good and civilization in the world. Muslims, Jews, blacks, and others are all defective in various ways. The failures of Europeans should be overlooked in favor of their historical accomplishments while the failures of people belonging to other groups demonstrate the defectiveness of those groups. Allegations of racism against non-white groups are reflexively denied. White Nationalism is a justified reaction against the malignant forces of non-European cultural defects. The pattern of beliefs apparent in TS' posting is very much a pattern of asserted white supremacy, despite his hedging comments here and there.
(note: h/t to 5ive's thread for much of this)
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