the average woman under 40 is less valuable than the average male worker under 40

Not sure what this proves in terms of practicality of our argument? I have never come across an instance where a company outright, explicitly says "salary is negotiable." Of course, saying that will make negotiators out of those who otherwise would not, but it's not really relevant if companies almost never say that. Being able to negotiate is almost always implied. If anything you might run into a company that says "salary non-negotiable," but almost never the opposite.

I mean maybe as a solution it is relevant, but certainly not if you are trying to determine gender pay inequality due to negotiating differences. As far as that is concerned, the important aspect is confirmed by the study: women less likely to negotiate than men when companies don't explicitly say negotiation is allowed (vast majority of cases)

Lilu, why does the claim that the difference is completely attributable to negotiation not need a cite? Should we just trust you?

Second, see the resume example. The male name resulted in higher initial offers than the female name.

Third, could you point to my shock and awe? I don't see it. Could you also explain my narrow view on how offers work? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about it all. I mean, congrats on your negotiating prowess and all... just not sure why you think its relevant to what I said.

Part of this has been addressed before but men can be more valuable just because of the male bias. Male dominated business related clubs being extreme examples but it goes all the way down to slightly biased perceptions of ability.

If there a prevailing sexist perception then it's self-reinforcing even if it's false.

lol at editing out the reason you said this.

So JJ your theory is businesses(including female owned businesses)are deliberately paying women less money to do the exact same work as men?

Can you link again to resume example? I just popped in to this thread

I think you just don't see a fraction of the factors that go into determining a salary for the same job because it very far from black/white. In addition to negotiations, other variables at play include what the person's current compensation is, differences in prior experience, supply/demand, etc.

Also I would strongly question your assertion of different pay for same quality work because almost no two employees will provide "same quality" work. But again even if in theory they would, some folks are just more expensive to aquire due to the above mentioned market forces and negotiations are part of that

I would not say that is an accurate description of my views.

Do you think the pay gap is about women having children? Once they have children they take more time off or drop out of the workforce completely for a few years until the children get older.

No. It's been linked at least 5 times. Go find it yourself.

Cool story.

I would not say that is an accurate description of my views.

Hint: It's a pretty complex subject. It's not going to be summed up by one reason.

Lol great reminder why I rarely even bother discussing things here. Too many folks like jj that are more concerned with reinforcing their own worldview than finding truth

Or too many people that think they're special and their opinion and time is so valuable that they can't be bothered to read a thread but expect other people to repeat everything just for them.

I don't think we'll miss you much. Demanding citations without posting your own. Making random assertions about what people believe without evidence. We've got lots of those people already.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...union-address/

http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/gr...graduation.pdf

http://www.ne.su.se/polopoly_fs/1.99...a_sandberg.pdf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072900827.html

Last one shows that not only did men negotiate more but the avg difference in salary between those who negotiated and those who did not was... 7%! Wonder where we have seen that number before?

I'm sure there are multiple factors that contribute to 7% difference, including descrimination, but data suggests that the bulk of the is due to differences in negotiation initiative/preferences.

lol

handwave away anything that doesn't align perfectly with your current worldview and then accuse others of doing the same

you could be putznik's new pal

What did I hand-wave away, exactly? Ironic you post this after my lengthy post with citations and where I mention gap is likely multiple factors, including discrimination, but that the majority of it seems to be negotiation differences.

Jj said "cool story" and "look it up yourself" when addressed with counter points. That is dismissive and unproductive as ****. Did I ever behave like that?

I wasn't dismissive of data I didn't like. I was dismissive of you when you asked for a link that had been posted 5 times because you said you were too lazy to read the thread.

I'm also pretty dismissive of you because you seemed to have given me a bunch of positions on how offers and negotiations are done when I posted almost nothing about how they happen.

Well you posted this:

Wherein you imply that pay differences for same job of roughly same quality are due to subtle descrimination. I mean you literally said "lot of differences explained by subtle descrimination" then followed up directly with that pay difference example.

My reply was to inform you of a bunch of ways that primarily result in pay differences that have absolutely nothing to do with descrimination! Which you felt was irrelevant to your point because reasons??

See, I suspect you didn't understand what I was talking about with "explained differences", because you missed that part of the conversation.

As for the rest, I'd point out if you notice a significant difference in variable X between a binary variable Y - binary variable Y is probably a factor.

For example the idea that companies offer more to someone making more elsewhere doesn't change at all the idea that gender is a relevant cause. It just might mean the subtle discrimination is happening earlier and in a different place.

Negotiations is one major one but some of them have nothing to do with negotiations such as what someone's current pay is. Companies will just typically out of the gates offer more to someone who is currently making more (if they can) to increase odds that offer is accepted. But you found that completely irrelevant to pay differences....

Also, being unemployed also often results in offers of less salary due to same reason - higher odds a lower salary will be accepted than if currently employed making X amt. That might also tie in with women who leave their jobs to child rear because when they re-enter market they have no "current comp" to provide baseline for a higher or similar offer

That's really not what I meant to say here. My bad. Let me try again...

If, let's imagine, a new tax cut was legislated: Employers don't have to pay into FICA for employees with odd numbered SSNs. Well, what would that do to the negotiating position of workers with even numbered SSNs? It would go down... amirite? And what would happen to the negotiating position of workers with odd numbered SSNs? It goes down too.

Got it?

Yeah. Except I didn't say that. I said:

And again, "explained differences" is related to what was talked about earlier ITT.

So I'm back to, what's the point in talking to you. You misrepresent what's said. Whether its malicious or not (as in you're just lazy and don't understand the context being talked about), it's not worth the effort.

Now you are just getting into the worst case of semantics I have seen on here just to save face. What "explained reasons" are those btw? I bet you will not name any of those

Regardless, your case for subtle discrimination underlying "explained reasons" was supported by the fact that people make different amount of money for same job of roughly same quality. This shows that you don't understand the reasons, since vast majority of why that happens has absolutely nothing to do with descrimination.

Still, curious to know what those explained reasons are that have subtle description underlying?

lol. Cooking with Politards and all.

As I predicted folks - will not elaborate to list any of "explained reasons" claimed to have "subtle descrimination" underlying them because now knows the gaping weaknesses in that argument. As long as I did my part to educate.

Lot to be learned here re: logic. Very basic imo that differences in pay for same job at roughly same quality does not necessarily imply discrimination. Over-simplistic thinking re: this topic unfortunately.