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08-09-2017 , 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCowley
Can somebody put Humpty Dumpty together again kthx?
You are the nut-low of SMpers. Basically, you are human trash. Before you whine about my post being zero content... regard that your post is equally so.

(removed image --wn)

Last edited by well named; 08-09-2017 at 08:40 PM.
08-09-2017 , 08:40 PM
Lets not post pictures of ****, if you don't mind :P
08-09-2017 , 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ball
There is what the science shows, and there is interpretation and contextualization.

For those that don't know, Damore is talking about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fi...onality_traits

Which seems to be a useful approach to personality research. But how applicable is it? Is there any research that says such and such traits are associated with better outcomes in tech companies? All the broad conclusions he's drawing from these personality tests are scientifically unwarranted.

Some questions I'd have about using the big five in the way that he does:

How sure can we be that these tests measure everything vital about an employee's personality? (Example: Honesty is NOT measured in this test. But there is evidence that women are more honest than men when it comes to group settings.)
Are the gender differences seen in the general population also reflective of the population of Google employees?
How sure are we that the differences noted are significant?
How do these five traits relate to one another? Are they independent or do they measure some of the same things?
Why are sex differences in these traits important when assessing individuals?
Are these traits mutable? (They appear to be in some research I linked to earlier, but whether changes can be permanent is unknown.)
How are the noted changes in personality across an individual's lifetime relevant to Google?

So, yes there is some solid underpinning to the things Damore says. But it certainly isn't some settled science and it definitely does not cover every aspect of an employee's personality. Importantly, there is zero evidence the research of the general population* can be extrapolated to employees at Google.

The big five personality traits are data driven. There is no accepted biological theory to explain the observed differences. Given that Google employees are a highly-selected group, there is no reason to assume that the noted differences would apply.


*And really we are talking about college students, since they are the subjects of most of this research. I did see one paper that extrapolated to an older population. There may be more, but this is an additional concern.
The "big five" is super soft play-doh science when taken beyond a way to collect data, but this doesn't seem to upset our "the soft sciences are stupid" crowd when someone like Jordan Peterson crows about them endlessly.
08-09-2017 , 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
Lets not post pictures of ****, if you don't mind :P
08-09-2017 , 09:12 PM
Self-help sounds like something you have to cooperate with your self well to do well at helping your self. Women are superior therefore at self help thanks to dude-bros science facts on cooperative biologicals. He can't help himself due to young maleness biologically or no? Yes he can?!!!
08-09-2017 , 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ball
I mean, the personality research is interesting. But the application is nonsense. I guess it's useful to separate those two since people are claiming that "science is science."
Touche, that's fair.

And I'll admit his citation link game started off strong. It wasn't until the 4th or 5th that he made one that contradicted his point, and wasn't until much later that he started linking the NYPost and the like.
08-09-2017 , 09:49 PM
When I have more time I'll probably read through the thing but if he's trying to use aggregate big-5 personality test results to suggest that women are just not suited to tech industry jobs then I will laugh heartily. That's the impression I'm getting. Maybe it's wrong. I haven't had time to pay attention to this yet.
08-10-2017 , 09:28 AM
One of my favorite things FoldN does when he gets all righteous is he keeps citing the same ****ing source over and over again like it's a different source each time, because he has literally no respect for his readers and the toxic mix of severe developmental disabilities and drug abuse make him incapable of participating in a real discussion.
08-10-2017 , 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87
The "big five" is super soft play-doh science when taken beyond a way to collect data, but this doesn't seem to upset our "the soft sciences are stupid" crowd when someone like Jordan Peterson crows about them endlessly.
Also, again again again this is one of those things that literally a child would've gotten right...

Why the **** is he doing interviews with Jordan Peterson and Stefan Molyneux?

Like libs are "hey this is all coded bigotry, typical white male internet reactionary bull****", FoldN and Jiggy inexplicably decide to lie about the content of the memo and make it seem like he's making a bunch of non-controversial, unobjectionable points(but is also boldly challenging the echo chamber? Ah, nevermind)...


"Dr." Damore kinda seems like exactly what we said he was!
08-10-2017 , 09:43 AM
A few of the SMPers seem to have turned on spanky. It's an interesting development.
08-10-2017 , 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
A few of the SMPers seem to have turned on spanky. It's an interesting development.

Really? Who me? A few? Which personality types are they? Are they cooperating like women? Is it the king of the science-philosophy hill gang acting like young males*?

Last edited by spanktehbadwookie; 08-10-2017 at 09:55 AM. Reason: *biolololologically?
08-10-2017 , 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87
The "big five" is super soft play-doh science when taken beyond a way to collect data, but this doesn't seem to upset our "the soft sciences are stupid" crowd when someone like Jordan Peterson crows about them endlessly.
Care to back that up. Seems that the Big Five is THE SCIENTIFICALLY accepted theory of human personality in the field. But what do PhDs in psychology know?

I know you won't watch this, but here is science you're going to need to refute:

08-10-2017 , 10:53 AM
You know it's true because of the ALL CAPS.
08-10-2017 , 10:59 AM
PersonalityExpert suddenly appears!!!
08-10-2017 , 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ball
No. It's in Footnote 9:



I also have no idea if "women spend more money than men" is true or how it's relevant to what he's saying here.
Fair enough. And that assertion to you is sexist?
08-10-2017 , 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JiggyMac
Care to back that up. Seems that the Big Five is THE SCIENTIFICALLY accepted theory of human personality in the field. But what do PhDs in psychology know?

I know you won't watch this, but here is science you're going to need to refute:

We don't discuss science, remember. You think it's all a huge "leftist" conspiracy to push some agenda. I'm not interested in that conversation.
08-10-2017 , 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
Fair enough. And that assertion to you is sexist?
I bet they drive worse than men too, especially the Oriental ones!
08-10-2017 , 11:32 AM
The "male alt-science" scene emerging from the women-telling memo martyr really has "personalities" types driving it.
08-10-2017 , 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladesman87
We don't discuss science, remember. You think it's all a huge "leftist" conspiracy to push some agenda. I'm not interested in that conversation.
Bladesman87: "Catfood"
08-10-2017 , 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
When I have more time I'll probably read through the thing but if he's trying to use aggregate big-5 personality test results to suggest that women are just not suited to tech industry jobs then I will laugh heartily. That's the impression I'm getting. Maybe it's wrong. I haven't had time to pay attention to this yet.
if you arent consulting your wife for your opinion could you ask her about the situation and post her opinion separately? it would be interesting to hear the husband wife combo of opinion in a relationship where the wife is a pro in a SJW field
08-10-2017 , 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ball
There is what the science shows, and there is interpretation and contextualization.

For those that don't know, Damore is talking about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fi...onality_traits

Which seems to be a useful approach to personality research. But how applicable is it? Is there any research that says such and such traits are associated with better outcomes in tech companies? All the broad conclusions he's drawing from these personality tests are scientifically unwarranted.

Some questions I'd have about using the big five in the way that he does:

How sure can we be that these tests measure everything vital about an employee's personality? (Example: Honesty is NOT measured in this test. But there is evidence that women are more honest than men when it comes to group settings.)
Are the gender differences seen in the general population also reflective of the population of Google employees?
How sure are we that the differences noted are significant?
How do these five traits relate to one another? Are they independent or do they measure some of the same things?
Why are sex differences in these traits important when assessing individuals?
Are these traits mutable? (They appear to be in some research I linked to earlier, but whether changes can be permanent is unknown.)
How are the noted changes in personality across an individual's lifetime relevant to Google?

So, yes there is some solid underpinning to the things Damore says. But it certainly isn't some settled science and it definitely does not cover every aspect of an employee's personality. Importantly, there is zero evidence the research of the general population* can be extrapolated to employees at Google.

The big five personality traits are data driven. There is no accepted biological theory to explain the observed differences. Given that Google employees are a highly-selected group, there is no reason to assume that the noted differences would apply.


*And really we are talking about college students, since they are the subjects of most of this research. I did see one paper that extrapolated to an older population. There may be more, but this is an additional concern.

Okay. So because you don't think is settled, it shouldn't be talked about, and any attempt to bring it up should result in a pillorying, show trial and swift kick out the door? That's what happened, and it's increasingly happening anywhere the current social justice movement gets its hooks sunk in deep enough.

Scott Alexander wrote up pretty good blog post addressing the memo and women in tech, summing up:

Quote:
This theory gives everyone what they want. It explains the data about women in tech. It explains the time course around women in tech. It explains other jobs like veterinary medicine where women dominate. It explains which medical subspecialties women will be dominant or underrepresented in. It doesn’t claim that women are “worse than men” or “biologically inferior” at anything. It doesn’t say that no woman will ever be interested in things, or no man ever interested in people. It doesn’t say even that women in tech don’t face a lot of extra harassment (any domain with more men than women will see more potential perpetrators concentrating their harassment concentrated on fewer potential victims, which will result in each woman being more harassed).

It just says that sometimes, in a population-based way that doesn’t necessarily apply to any given woman or any given man, women and men will have some different interests. Which should be pretty obvious to anyone who’s spent more than a few minutes with men or women.

And after Fly does his routine of attacking Scott for being just an aspy racist with a blog, I again will implore Well Named and Original Position to weigh in here on why they still agree with guys like Tom Demain that this issue is not worth taking seriously, and that the Fly's of the world have not taken control of your movement, steering it straight into the ice burg.

Scott also lays out some evidence of this in the last section of the blog:

Quote:
A lot of people without connections to the tech industry don’t realize how bad it’s gotten. This is how bad. It would be pointless trying to do anything about this person in particular. This is the climate.

Silicon Valley was supposed to be better than this. It was supposed to be the life of the mind, where people who were interested in the mysteries of computation and cognition could get together and make the world better for everybody. Now it’s degenerated into this giant hatefest of everybody writing long screeds calling everyone else Nazis and demanding violence against them. Where if someone disagrees with the consensus, it’s just taken as a matter of course that we need to hunt them down, deny them of the cloak of anonymity, fire them, and blacklist them so they can never get a job again. Where the idea that we shouldn’t be a surveillance society where we carefully watch our coworkers for signs of sexism so we can report them to the authorities is exactly the sort of thing you get reported to the authorities if people see you saying.
And will continue spreading until right-minded people start to recognize it:

Quote:
This is the world we’ve built. Where making people live in fear is a feature, not a bug.

And: it can get worse. If you only read one link, let it be this one about the young adult publishing industry
08-10-2017 , 11:47 AM
edited: No telling people to die, 6ix

Last edited by chezlaw; 08-10-2017 at 08:03 PM.
08-10-2017 , 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoldnDark
Fair enough. And that assertion to you is sexist?
The example of him denying any gender gap in pay for the same work is more of an example of him being wrong. When you combine it with his misuse of the personality data to suggest that any gender gap in tech is biological in nature, then, yes, I can see being offended by that characterization.

Going back to the Quillette article you linked, I'm pretty much saying the same thing as David P. Schmidt:

Quote:
But it is not clear to me how such sex differences are relevant to the Google workplace. And even if sex differences in negative emotionality were relevant to occupational performance (e.g., not being able to handle stressful assignments), the size of these negative emotion sex differences is not very large (typically, ranging between “small” to “moderate” in statistical effect size terminology; accounting for less than 10% of the variance). So, using someone’s biological sex to essentialize an entire group of people’s personality would be like operating with an axe. Not precise enough to do much good, probably will cause a lot of harm. Moreover, men are more emotional than women in certain ways, too. Sex differences in emotion depend on the type of emotion, how it is measured, where it is expressed, when it is expressed, and lots of other contextual factors.
I've also seen a lot of strawman arguments saying that the left thinks women and men are exactly equal. Maybe some believe that, but the far more common view is that the differences don't matter much, if at all.
08-10-2017 , 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie
Really? Who me? A few? Which personality types are they? Are they cooperating like women? Is it the king of the science-philosophy hill gang acting like young males*?
I will never turn on you Spanky. But I'd ask you to remember when guys like Trolly and his ilk did, having you demodded for supporting "racists" and eventually having you exiled for "gibberish." These are the people who are ruining the movement you sincerely support.
08-10-2017 , 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ball
The example of him denying any gender gap in pay for the same work is more of an example of him being wrong. When you combine it with his misuse of the personality data to suggest that any gender gap in tech is biological in nature, then, yes, I can see being offended by that characterization.
There is almost ZERO observable gender gap in pay - which is also illegal and anyone getting paid less for the same work based on their gender has recourse to sue. Stop discrediting yourself.

      
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