There is no extra rake taken for the beast but you are funneling money the wrong direction and slowing the progression of micro/small stakes players.

How hard is it to create a mini-beast?

Not in the mood to troll and apologies for grunching. Just gonna say... you're not crazy to question. It's natural that you might think it's unbelievable. In poker the cards come funny sometimes; so funny that it can be quite hard to believe. When it happens, it's not going to be pretty and spread out nicely in any sort of expected way. It's going to be.... unbelievable.

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I'll put this as simply as I can. You're never, ever going to have a thread here on 2+2 about rigging that provides very little in the way of substantial evidence, that isn't going to get a fair bit of criticism/trolling/what have you. We always mod these threads pretty loosely. If you don't like that, I can understand it, and we might as well lock it up now. If this thread was in Internet Poker, I'd have merged it in with the rigged thread by now, but since this one is in a support forum, I'll let WPN decide if they want to lock it and suggest you go there.

Anyway, I deleted a bunch of posts (quite annoying that for every post of someone else I delete, I have to delete a reply by you), more than I normally would, but I'm not planning on coming back to this thread every day to delete 20 more. If it comes to that, I'll just lock it up.

Everyone else, it would be appreciated if we could knock if off with the LC/NC/pure insult posts.

This, and some of the reasons you provided in the post reports where you claim moderators are doing nothing, are ridiculous. Moderators don't read every thread (in fact, I only read anything in this forum when I'm brought here by a post report, and I expect it's the same for other moderators), and you're not going to have post reports responded to in minutes every time - you usually won't. Report one or two posts, and then have a little patience.

I er, um, I really don't know what to say to this. I completely missed this post earlier.

I guess now I understand a little better why you keep thinking some people are trolling when they're simply responding to your rigged theories. If you can have another look at the posts of yours that otatop quoted, and say those aren't speculating that WPN is (or may be) rigged, well, you have a different understanding of the term than pretty much everyone else on the site. I'm not here to argue the point with you, but every one of those posts screams "rigged", and so you should expect replies based on that.

Oh the irony.

You clearly think there is some manipulation of the cards. I'm sure you can post all of your stats from your gigantic 20k hand sample size and prove this. Or you could just go to the rigtard thread and post it all there.

On FullFlush, Intertops, And BetOnline I have absolutely crushed the 5NL equivalent

These 3 small ass networks are by far the softest of the USA sites though their traffic is poor in some/all areas. WPN micro is gonna have a lot more grinder type people than these sites making the games a lot tougher when there's not nearly as many straight donaters.

P.S. I doubt your sample size is nearly enough to determine anything. You have a bad case of selective memory and some tilt issues. If poker sites were rigged they would not be rigging it against small timers like yourself they would rig it against big winners who eat up recreational deposits at a very fast rate and prevent those people from raking them much money at all

edit: why am i replying to this thread

shouldnt be hard at all imo. the jump from 10nl to 25nl is pretty big. the mini beast could be 2nl/pl 5nl/pl and 10nl/pl. it would work very good imo.

Agreed

its just kind of crazy to me that as a micro stake player you are contributing to a program that basically only rewards the top players. by creating a minibeast you are moving along microstakes players to small stakes which helps those small stakes games out long term as well. it's just good for all the poker players and the business. if the guys playing 2nl-25nl have there own race you would also drum up more games that last longer.

but this is WPN, so you know... if stars isn't doing it they wont either.

i play mostly 25nl and 50nl on WPN, but here is my limited experience at the 5nl and 10nl games so far this year... seems beatable to me?

10nl: 8714 hands at 12.35bb/100
5nl: 719 hands at 75.05bb/100

If this is your thought process, you have a major problem. Cash out asap.

The beast is like taking amateur money to subsidize the pro field in golf

I agree with op that taking money out of 5nl for the beast is detrimental at these stakes and makes the games that much more unbeatable. No one playing micros has a shot of ever getting a piece of the beast prize pie. If money is being taken out at these stakes for the beast then I agree there should be micro beast set up for players at these stakes to make it more fair.

LOL sample size...20k hands and OP thinks he knows everything.

The hands you posted in this thread make it clear that you're probably not as good as you think. You most likely ran hot on the other sites.

Move up to where they respect your raises.

Your location says a lot about your maturity level IMO

They are not taking money out of your stack (pots you win) for the beast! They are taking it out of their rake!

Let's compare some rakes on a $4 pot at 5nl (or equivalent) 6-max as taken from their web sites:

FullFlush (.01c for every .10c, max .50c): Rake taken .40c
Intertops[4nl] (.01c for every .15c, max $2.00): Rake taken .27c
Merge[4nl] (.01c for every .18c, max $4.00): Rake taken .22c
WPN (01c for every .20c, max $3.00): Rake taken .20c

The rake is LOWEST on WPN. lol

While Full Flush has the nice low cap of .50c for games under 10nl, I guarantee a 5nl player will pay the most rake there because a relatively low % of the pots they play will exceed the capped rake amount, and they are thrashing you for 10% up to that point which is most of your pots. WPN is raking 5%.

"But you're forgetting that Beast fee they're taking from me too!!!" No, that's not how it works. They are contributing to the Beast out of their own pockets, from that 5%. Look at OP's KQ hand... the way they write the hand history may confuse the issue a bit, but do the math:

Total Pot $4.07
Total removed by WPN .20c (4.9%)
Total awarded to winner: $3.87

@OP - Have you beaten NL5 (or NL2?) at any other site?

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Can people PLEASE stop saying that wpn pays for the beast out of their own pockets. If there was no beast, take the $0.20 rake for example, A player on rakeback would get rakeback on $0.20. Now that there is the beast, they only get rakeback on the $0.14 that is considered rake while the other 6 cent goes into the beast and they never see it again. The beast is funded off the backs of micro grinders and players who dont cash. WPN doesnt contribute a dime to the beast because the money goes straight from the pot into the beast prizepool, so it was never in their hands to be considered theirs to begin with. The only thing WPN did was lower their take by having the beast. That is not funding the beast, that is them taking a pay cut to run this promotion. The same pay cut micro grinders and people who dont cash take! Actually with that logic i guess you could say they do fund it, but not 100%. the beast is funded by micro players, people who dont cash AND wpn. The only difference is the micro players and people who dont cash lose 100% of the money they contribute to the beast where as wpn is in a position to freeroll aka the profit they make from rake/running the site.

Again that money taken out for beast should be put into micro race and not up top. Micro grinders shouldn't be used as feeders for the beast as will never see any of that prize money.

The rakeback calc part is true. But will you please do the math? Not that those other sites offer rakeback, merge definitely does not, idk about intertops or FF.

Let's pretend though for the sake of argument FF and intertops did offer
27% rakeback. How much are we paying now in my example?:

FullFlush (.01c for every .10c, max .50c): Rake taken .40c
Rakeback = .40*.27 = .11c, effective rake paid .29c

Intertops[4nl] (.01c for every .15c, max $2.00): Rake taken .27c
Rakeback = .27*.27 = .07c, effective rake paid .20c

Merge[4nl] (.01c for every .18c, max $4.00): Rake taken .22c (no rakeback offered)

WPN (01c for every .20c, max $3.00): Rake taken .20c
Rakeback = .14 (non-beast portion) * .27 = .04c, effective rake paid .16c

Can we PLEASE stop saying the Beast drop is killing the micro grinders? It simply is not true... you are paying less rake on WPN compared to other US options at these stakes, even with the "beast effect" on rakeback.

To be clear, I'm not opposed to this. The notion that the Beast is killing micro grinders is just wrong, it only takes some simple math to show the 5nl grinder is paying less rake on WPN than they would on other sites (to be fair I didn't check Bovada), despite not being able to cash in the Beast.

I do think it would be a nice idea to divide the Beast into a Beast and Mini-Beast (microstakes) versions, with the micro being 10nl and lower (you can not include 25NL or the 25NL grinders will dominate the leader board and it will be the same complaints all over again). JUST BE FOREWARNED: If WPN does split the Beast like this I think you will find the micro-Beast prizes to be pretty underwhelming... a large portion of the beast prize pool is actually coming from 25nl+ as more rake drops there. That being said, underwhelming or not I think redistributing this money to the 2nl-10nl grinders is a fine idea personally.

Like so many others, +1

Did you even read my post? Nowhere did i say the beast is killing the micros. I said cashing the beast playing micros is pretty much impossible. I also said the beast is funded off the backs of micro grinders and players who simply dont cash. The math in his instances is pretty much irrelevant as i was not talking about "wpn being the lowest in the industry". What i was talking about was the fact 2nl-10nl are basically getting robbed. Micros and people who simply dont cash are who fund the beast. If somebody plays 25nl+ and they dont grind hard and dont cash then so be it. But to throw another hurdle at 2nl-10nl players is flat out wrong. These players are usually learning or trying to get better, why give them an extra hurdle just to line the pockets of guys playing 25nl+. Poker is a pyramid. A pyramid is vulnerable if the foundation isnt solid. Instead of syphoning off cash from micro guys (which they effectively lose out on potential rakeback from) why not have a micro beast or no beast for those stakes period? that way they get more $return than they do currently and can actually move up faster? Do you think people playing 2nl-10nl like knowing they contribute to a jackpot they have no chance in hell of winning even the smallest prize from? Alot of those people get frustrated, feel taken advantage of and go to another site where the micro games arent penny pinched. Who cares if the other site has higher rake, micro players dont really care or sometimes even notice that enough to make a fuss. What they do notice is beast contributions and the accruing beast points after every pot they win that meets the threshold.


a micro beast that is limited to 2nl/pl to 10nl/pl and limit games .02-.04 up to $0.50-$1 would eliminate all of that and actually grow the micros, it'd put more money in micro players pots (especially the top 3) and they could actually move up faster. This would be the perfect breeding ground to start seeding people into the 25nl+ games who built up a roll from the mini beast and micros. Im pretty firm on this so if you dont agree then dont waste your time writing a huge novel like i just did, im tired of arguing. A mini beast is needed end of story.

Except they're not funding the beast. They used to, when there was an extra drop going to be beast over and above the 5% rake, they were getting robbed blind. Not any more. They do lose a small bit of potential rakeback, I guess you can call that "getting robbed", but the point that you dismiss as irrelevant still stands true.

You're asserting that micro grinders, are studying and trying to improve, become winners, build a roll, move up. That's fair in some cases for sure. But the assertion that the beast is punishing their efforts because it eats into their rakeback, effectively lowering their rakeback %, is tough to get behind. It's true the beast takes a small bit of their rakeback. But the grinder is doing business, and their goal should be to do business where they have the lowest overhead and/or highest return, right? Despite the impact of the beast on their rakeback, WPN offers them the lowest cost of doing business.

Who cares? Maybe these so called striving to improve micro grinders should care. Even if the beast pisses them off, it's still a lower cost of doing business than Merge or Full Flush or Intertops. If the games are so much softer at these other sites, then perhaps they can overcome the larger $$ being taken out of every pot they win. There may be other factors to consider as well... availability to multi-table, cash out fees, cash out timing, etc.

I do agree with this 100%. Perception is huge. Many/most micro players don't understand how to evaluate the cost of their grinding business or even know how much they pay out of each pot (as evidenced itt lol). But they can see their beast points and accruing and realizing they have to grind a zillion hands to generate enough rake to get paid on the beast is a bit demoralizing, aggravating, ect. I get that and agree with you. Even more so if they mistakenly think there's an extra drop over and above the 5% coming out of that pot they just won.


I'm glad you're firm on this. If you'd read my next post you'd know I agree. Not just for the perception issue, but also the reasons you state here. A mini-beast is a fine idea imo.

The original Beast didn't include the lower micro games. So nothing was ever taken out for 5nl games.

The rakeback and VIP reductions fund about a quarter of the Beast. The network funds the other 3/4.

True, it started at 10nl irrc. Thanks for the correction.

I'm gonna have to agree. I've been grinding the micro stakes a ton and I definitely sucked when I first started playing again after not playing since BF but damn the micros are just filled with nit mass tablers and the rake can be brutal. These micros kinda feel like the $50 & 100 nl games I used to play on stars pre BF. I just play for fun but ya it's hard to beat the rake at that level and the RB you get is LOL worthy and it's not surprising with the Beast jacking a good portion. I used to be able to print money at the micros mass tabling on stars especially with their generious VIP system. Now I'm just a donater lol, just my take as a post black friday fish. I basically have given up on NL now, it's boring anyways.

plenty of seats available on the micro plo tables. I find it much more entertaining since I too only play for fun or for software testing tasks