I think a few of us, except the op, did....

Fair enough, it can be tough to tell on both ends I guess.

fwiw aiev is pretty skewed at wpn/boss since they don't have to show if they lose,,,,,

That was why I went with only turn or earlier all ins.

you keep saying there is smoke and we keep telling you no there isnt.

every insinuated theory you have posted about are just words. you have to actually provide evidence.

until then, no one has to prove a negative to you and all enjoyment and laughter you provide is warranted.

OP isn't the only one smelling the smoke that's been well established in this thread, others on 2+2 and one going in the other forum currently as well. It's being looked into, I was going over mine tonight, still have more work to do. Some stuff looked better than I expected but I have more analysis to do.

I agree that nobody needs to prove any theories invalid, it's on the theorists to prove their side. Jaughter and enjoyment is always a good thing. I just think OP is a bit tilted and he's also admitted to not being an expert and a not as experienced as some others. This is a very touchy subject for many reasons.

The OP doesn't even know what he is trying to prove. All he has told us is that he is losing. I think that we can just take his word for that.

You continue to just be combative and aggressive in your responses and there's really no call for it. There never was. OP is simply reporting a drastically different poker experience and results on WPN than anywhere else he has played poker online or watched it play live or on TV.

OP admits he's not an expert. OP admits he's not a mathematician and that he has a lot to learn about EV calculations. OP is clearly asking other people to report similar experiences and organize some kind of discussion about the subject. This has been accomplished.

You keep making these ridiculous statements like "no matter how many people come in here and disagree with you" and "nobody agrees with you" in between people posting about already looking into the same issue themselves. I mean, come on - Other people can actually read the thread.

I am not attacking YOU personally and it's really bizarre that you would take such a STRONG position against me while also claiming that I don't know what I'm trying to prove. If I'm so clueless: Why are so active in this thread? Should just be shrugged off rather than taking up valuable time in your life.

Leave it alone and please stop (Fozzy) posting things like "Still waiting for OP to post graphs" like I'm actively compiling information on this @ 3am. I was, shocker, doing something other than poker for a while. I've made it clear (as have you all) that my sample size is still smallish and that I naturally wouldn't be the best source of statistical data right now. Others are taking that ball and running with it and I think all of us should be grateful for that since we all play here. Nobody wants to get cheated so let's take a closer look. It can cause absolutely no harm whatsoever. It really doesn't make sense for it to be attacked so vehemently if it's so benign to begin with.

And I'm still waiting for you to tell us what it is that you think you are trying to prove.

You still haven't answered why this would make you a lower. Even if they are puffing up the pots, they are puffing them up for everyone

I'm not going to say that this site is rigged or anything because it is not. I will say this is by far the toughest competition for an us site we can play on. I would even say that 200nl is easier on Bovada than 25-50nl some tables could even compete with it on 10nl. Alot of the games don't even have a single fish on them, it is just everyone grinding for the beast or trying. I will say I run into way more setup hands on this site than others, but that being said you can play more hands with more tables so boom, but ranges here are much tighter than any other site on average and I think that is the main cause.

Your sample size isn't "smallish". It's nearly nonexistent. There is a reason no one ever posts actual stats/db's in these threads. Yes, you aren't the only one who thinks that it is rigged in some way. It's human nature to have a selective memory.

Confirmed site is rigged

interesting post from op, mods delete ifits un acceptable


http://www.pocketfives.com/f7/what-w...idence-702206/

Seems like the same old nonsense arguments with no solid evidence. We have our own riggy thread in the IP forum, so no need for that. By the way, it was already linked to earlier and not deleted.

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $5.00 (VPIP: 18.75, PFR: 17.86, 3Bet Preflop: 5.26, Hands: 119)
SB: $0.84 (VPIP: 30.43, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
Hero (BB): $5.33
UTG: $5.80 (VPIP: 23.71, PFR: 18.09, 3Bet Preflop: 8.44, Hands: 629)
MP: $2.78 (VPIP: 55.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
CO: $0.80 (VPIP: 65.22, PFR: 8.70, 3Bet Preflop: 8.57, Hands: 73)

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has Q Q

UTG raises to $0.15, MP calls $0.15, CO raises to $0.80 and is all-in, fold, fold, Hero raises to $5.33 and is all-in, fold, MP calls $2.63 and is all-in

Flop: ($6.53, 3 players) 9 K A

Turn: ($6.53, 3 players) K

River: ($6.53, 3 players) 7

Hero shows Q Q (Two Pair, Kings and Queens)

Main Pot [$2.57]: (Pre 55%, Flop 10%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot#1 [$3.96]: (Pre 56%, Flop 10%, Turn 0%)

MP shows A K (Full House, Kings full of Aces)

Main Pot [$2.57]: (Pre 33%, Flop 86%, Turn 99%)
Side Pot#1 [$3.96]: (Pre 44%, Flop 90%, Turn 100%)

CO shows A 6 (Two Pair, Aces and Kings)

Main Pot [$2.57]: (Pre 12%, Flop 4%, Turn 1%)

MP wins $6.21
Rake paid $0.22

$0.10 was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.


Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $8.77 (VPIP: 18.52, PFR: 17.59, 3Bet Preflop: 5.41, Hands: 114)
MP: $4.84 (VPIP: 38.95, PFR: 25.26, 3Bet Preflop: 7.89, Hands: 100)
CO: $6.21 (VPIP: 23.66, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 8.47, Hands: 626)
Hero (BTN): $5.00
SB: $1.02 (VPIP: 83.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
BB: $8.72 (VPIP: 28.70, PFR: 19.44, 3Bet Preflop: 4.44, Hands: 110)

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has J K

UTG raises to $0.15, fold, CO calls $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, SB calls $0.13, fold

Flop: ($0.65, 4 players) J 7 5
SB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.45, SB calls $0.45, UTG calls $0.45, fold

Turn: ($2.00, 3 players) K
SB bets $0.42 and is all-in, UTG calls $0.42, Hero calls $0.42

River: ($3.26, 3 players) 4
UTG bets $2.06, Hero calls $2.06

UTG shows 5 5 (Three of a Kind, Fives)
(Pre 43%, Flop 69%, Turn 10%)
Hero shows J K (Two Pair, Kings and Jacks)
(Pre 43%, Flop 5%, Turn 26%)
SB shows 2 4 (Flush, King High)
(Pre 15%, Flop 26%, Turn 64%)
UTG wins $3.76
Rake paid $0.24
SB wins $3.26

$0.12 was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.


Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $6.98 (VPIP: 17.48, PFR: 16.50, 3Bet Preflop: 5.41, Hands: 109)
BTN: $4.84 (VPIP: 39.56, PFR: 26.37, 3Bet Preflop: 8.57, Hands: 96)
SB: $6.36 (VPIP: 23.61, PFR: 18.23, 3Bet Preflop: 8.55, Hands: 619)
Hero (BB): $5.00
UTG: $8.72 (VPIP: 29.25, PFR: 19.81, 3Bet Preflop: 4.44, Hands: 108)

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 3 3

fold, CO raises to $0.15, fold, SB calls $0.13, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.45, 3 players) 9 2 3
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $0.28, fold, Hero calls $0.28

Turn: ($1.01, 2 players) 8
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($1.01, 2 players) 7
Hero bets $0.70, CO raises to $1.40, Hero calls $0.70

CO shows 7 K (Flush, King High)
(Pre 49%, Flop 25%, Turn 77%)
Hero shows 3 3 (Three of a Kind, Threes)
(Pre 51%, Flop 75%, Turn 23%)
CO wins $3.62
Rake paid $0.13

$0.06 was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.


All from the same session that I made the OP after. The thing is that these never end. Ever. There's never a time where I'm behind when the money goes in and I catch a card on the turn or river that puts me ahead. Never. I can't find one example of it in my database on WPN.

I was dealt AKo 17 times in that session. Seventeen. I hit the flop with it twice. I GII with QQ vs AK - the flop SLAMS AK. Sure, it's one hand. Again, I never, ever win a coin flip. Ever.

Like I said...these things just never happen but once every blue moon on the other networks. It's ALL that happens the second I fire up WPN. How can you expect someone to NOT be a little suspicious especially when numerous other people are already conducting statistical studies due to the same ridiculous results on WPN?

Here are the pots I won the most from during that same session:



Just stacking fish over, and over. ANY time I have a session going like this, there's a dozen hands like the ones I posted above to offset it. As soon as I go up a BI or more during a session, it just goes RIGHT downhill. No way to prevent it, nothing you can do to stop it. You're GOING to get dealt hands you can't avoid putting money in with and you're GOING to lose.

That's a -3.5 BI session.

Well... let's see a solid statistical study that actually has any interesting conclusion.


For arguing about rigged games with words and feelings:

forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/great-poker-rigged-debate-collected-threads-edition-255990/


For posting bad beats:

forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54/poker-beats-brags-variance/

Please, don't derail the thread by posting outside links that have nothing to do with it.

You've expressed clearly that you don't feel there's anything to this. Great. Moving along we shouldn't just keep seeing your posts repeatedly expressing the same thing. We've got it.

Those links have *everything* to do with it.

Please use those as they are the proper place for this. Many far more experienced players have tried to gently guide you but you refuse to listen. That will slow your progress tremendously as a poker player.

When there's a collection of complaints about never ending negative variance concerning ONE site, that's reason to look into it further. When statistical data like provided in the pocket 5's link is given, it's more of a reason to look into it. When consistent winners on other sites for YEARS simply cannot win a dime on ONE network - it's worth a look.

NO harm can come from looking into it further. I encourage others to post any group of hands that occurred in a session you felt was a little less than kosher. Other threads have been made regarding extreme variance on WPN. One site shouldn't be more prone to variance than another. If it is, it's worth looking into.

Says who? You? No...it doesn't work that way.

THIS is the appropriate place for THIS discussion. If you don't think it is, obviously there's only one thing left for you to do: Stop posting in it.

You've posted your opinion and thoughts on this. Once again: Thank you. Now...moving along...

It's not ONE site. Name any site and you will find a group of players convinced that it's rigged, without exception.

You can do your "looking into it further" in the appropriate thread. Then, IF you actually find anything, report back here.

I certainly don't decide where the proper place is. That has been decided by 2+2.

Exactly...and 2+2 hasn't moved, deleted, or locked this thread so guess what: You're wrong in that this isn't the appropriate place for this.

You don't tell me or anyone else "you can continue your discussion in this location and then if I think there's enough evidence to warrant a further look you can come back into this thread and continue it here". You're not the Emperor of WPN and 2+2.

For the third time: We've seen your thoughts and opinions on this and we appreciate them. Now...MOVING ALONG...

OP please STOP posting hh's and riggy sounding rants and quit posting when on tilt. What you encouraged others to do is a terrible idea. Calm down and lets act professional and reasonable as we can. You're gonna kill your side of the argument. posting tiny samples are useless and makes you seem VERY new and like you don't know how the game works overall. Early next week ill go over my stuff and talk to some people but it's Sunday lets try to make some @ gl ya'll!