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New Beast Payout Structure Starting 28th New Beast Payout Structure Starting 28th

03-31-2015 , 12:45 AM
I think the notion that The Beast brings in new players is laughable. It is near-zero chance that any new player can place in The Beast.

I think eco brought up some good points. I remember back when I first started on Stars in 2007/2008, getting that stress ball/star was a HUGE achievement for me, and then the bathrobe on FTP after that.

These promotions that continually syphon money from these players while giving 0% of it back is just not good business. As a poker site owner, keeping the fish in the game longer is an integral part of the business. Instead, that extra 4-5% rakeback these recs could be earning is being cashed out by grinders and never being put back into the player pool. The VIP system is plenty to keep grinders satisfied, the Beast only serves to hurt the little guys.
03-31-2015 , 01:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz
The poker economy as a pyramid isn't an idea that I came up with. That concept has been out there for a long time. The pryamid doesn't have anything to do with rake or rakeback, it is about players putting money into the poker economy. The base of the pyramid are depositing players. Without those players there is no pyramid; there is no poker.

I think that a promotion like the Beast brings in players who might not be used to depositing. If they can win money on Bovada and Carbon but come here and find themselves breaking even or losing, they might not stick around for long. And I'm not so sure if those are the players that we really need to begin with. So yes the Beast does draw in new players; but are those the players upon which we can build our base?
And I totally agree new deposits are essential for a poker site to survive, although if we are going to use the pyramid as an example we could say the US economy is based on that principle and look how well that is starting to turn out.

But like I said before I have zero problems with different ways to alter the beast or different promos geared towards different players.

I do however have a problem with posts that have zero thought put into them and numbers thrown out there that are way off base. Having the beast is far better than nothing at all and is not a bad idea. I actually find it amazing that a site is putting that much money back into the player pool each week and people still bitch about it.
03-31-2015 , 04:29 AM
You basically can't argue that the freebuys didnt bring in new MTT players. I think they should have been held once a week instead of having one every day for a few days but either way it was still a fantastic promotion that brings in new players. The beast however doesnt bring new people to poker.

They can afford to put money back to the player pool because the rake charged is so much higher than Poker Stars. I'm probably in a unique position because Im not American and can play on whatever site I want. I'm currently trying to stay away from Stars because competition in the market place is obviously good for poker long term.

THe beast is obviously horrible for the eco system as a whole and is basically acheives the opposite of what some of the major sites are going for right now.
03-31-2015 , 04:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by berry1
You basically can't argue that the freebuys didnt bring in new MTT players. I think they should have been held once a week instead of having one every day for a few days but either way it was still a fantastic promotion that brings in new players. The beast however doesnt bring new people to poker.

They can afford to put money back to the player pool because the rake charged is so much higher than Poker Stars. I'm probably in a unique position because Im not American and can play on whatever site I want. I'm currently trying to stay away from Stars because competition in the market place is obviously good for poker long term.

THe beast is obviously horrible for the eco system as a whole and is basically acheives the opposite of what some of the major sites are going for right now.
Ya you're right the beast is horrible for the eco system especially the extra 20k WPN puts into it every week, thats probably the worst part!
03-31-2015 , 05:04 AM
Frank, no disrespect, but you are only rehashing the same point you've been making and typically your posts have nothing to do with the biggest point, which is recreational players getting zero benefit from the rake they pay towards The Beast. Your counter-argument is "better it stays in player hands than the sites", but again, you are missing the point. The people benefiting from The Beast are few and far between, and those people do not need to be the beneficiary of a re-distribution of wealth from rec to grinders. Not only that, this rake takes MORE money from the majority of the player base than it would otherwise because people get zero rewards on it. I would argue this is always going to hinder their success moving forward.
03-31-2015 , 11:31 AM
Here are some facts.

The top 130 or so generate 900,000 Beast points. This equates to $18k a week. The Beast is paying these top 130 around $32,900. Each week, these players, thanks to the Beast, profit $14,900.

The 900k points breaks into 4 clean quartiles of 225,000. They all pay the same amount in Beast. What differs is the profit that is given to each group. Profit is Beast reward minus Beast paid.

Here are the break points:
Week of...........................Week of.............................Week of
3-21...........Profit.............3-28............Profit.............4-4...........Profit...
1-12.........$10,876...........1-11...........$10,143.........??...........$14,000
13-37........$1,779...........12-36..........$2837............??............$2500
38-76........$769..............37-75...........$761.............??...........(-$600)
77-131......$1,002...........76-128.........$841..............??...........(-$350)

Before the change, everyone in the top 130 got their Beast money back, with some profit love. Not now. With the changes, the bottom two quartiles have had their Beast profit moved to the top 37 players. Not only has their profit been lost, but some of their actual beast money has left, too. Remember, each quartile pays the same. The top 12 and bottom 55 all generate the same amount of Beast money.

With the changes, instead of the top 12 taking around 67% of the profit, they now take 90+%.

From Rounders, attributed to Amarillo Slim, “You can shear a sheep many times, but skin him only once.”

The changes in the Beast are a skinning.

I don't like giving the top dozen 60% of the profit, but I downright hate giving them 90+%.

PS For the WPN Rep. I am not comparing Beast to No Beast. I am comparing the Beast Before and After the changes.
03-31-2015 , 04:52 PM
Interesting stats Who_yaw, finally someone with some numbers to look at and evaluate. Just so I am clear the players are showing a loss (38-131) that is the old beast payout vs new beast payout and not beast rake paid vs beast payout correct?
03-31-2015 , 05:12 PM
For what its worth the players from 133 - 1000 earned 1,200,000 app. beast points and all of their VIP benefits were given to the top 132 with the vast majority given to the top 12. Lets assume that every other player that played that week only earned 500,000 beast points.

Top 12 earn 238K beast points
13-132 earn 660K beast points
133-1000 earn 1,200K beast points
Everyone else who knows, gotta be at least 500K

The little guys that contribute way more than half those points get all the VIP rewards they would have earned to the top 100 guys.

Not only that but almost all of the pots raked for the beast for those players did not cap, so they got raked fully for the beast.

Where a lot of the 100 - 400 NL pots get capped so their not even fully raked for the beast. Which makes it even worse because the top guys get a much better percentage of VIP rewards from the racked pot than the little guys but still get to take all the little guys extra VIP rewards.

I'm done with this thread.
03-31-2015 , 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazley
I think the notion that The Beast brings in new players is laughable. It is near-zero chance that any new player can place in The Beast.

I think eco brought up some good points. I remember back when I first started on Stars in 2007/2008, getting that stress ball/star was a HUGE achievement for me, and then the bathrobe on FTP after that.

These promotions that continually syphon money from these players while giving 0% of it back is just not good business. As a poker site owner, keeping the fish in the game longer is an integral part of the business. Instead, that extra 4-5% rakeback these recs could be earning is being cashed out by grinders and never being put back into the player pool. The VIP system is plenty to keep grinders satisfied, the Beast only serves to hurt the little guys.
100 percent agree. I am admittedly a pretty big cash game fish but refuse to play anymore on this site because of the beast. Not only gives money to the top players on the site every week but also impossible to play at a table with less than 4 of the big grinders sitting there. Even fish can recognize when they have no shot. THe cash games here are unplayable unless you 20 table 30 hours a week. No thanks.
03-31-2015 , 05:43 PM
most of u all suck. Can we please ditch this mtt and just add to beast. no one wants to play it
03-31-2015 , 05:52 PM
Eckfreak don't throw out numbers you don't know are accurate, it makes your posts completely useless. Comeback with some solid numbers and we can have a discussion.
04-01-2015 , 01:28 AM
Each of the four groups of players generates 225,000 beast points, give or take a thousand. Each group contributes 2 cents per point, or $4,500. In my analysis, when a group is paid more than $4,500, they show a profit. If they fail to get $4,500, they show a loss.

The entire magnitude of the change is shown by taking away profit and adding in the loss. The third group of players will have $1,400 less each week while the fourth group will have $1,200 less. Why has $3,600 a week ($187,000 annually) been moved to the top? Obviously, WPN believes big bubbles create big Beast points – which will increase rake. (For maximum clarity, this is comparing Beast before the changes to Beast after the changes, not Beast v No-Beast.)

My profit/loss analysis assumes everyone plays the same amount – which cannot be true. WPN believes people will play more. I believe the probable gains they get at the very top will be offset by reduced play at bottom. First, because the bottom has $187,000 a year less money to play with. And second, because gains at the top will be short-lived. Here's why I believe the second point.

When the Beast first started, it was monthly and I was always in the top 10. But, there was a pecking order. The top players had the ability to play more tables than I could. And those below lacked the ability to match my table count. I remember playing 20 tables the last day to protect a $1,000 bubble. I told the guy forcing me to play that he would never catch me. I told him to take the day off and watch his Beast grow – but he wouldn't. There was no way I was giving away $1,000 so I hammered the tables with him, knowing I was losing. I held my position and lost $500 that day. But, losing $500 was better than losing $1,000, so I had to play. I checked my underling's stats for that final day: Down $2,000! The fool lost $2,000 chasing my $1,000. That was the only month I remember him being a regular. The sheep was skinned.

I predict that 1-2-3 will play just enough to beat #5. If #5 hammers the tables the last day or two, 1-4 will log on and defend the $1,500 bubble. I've done it. Hell, I still do it for $90. I try not to play on Fridays, but when near the bottom of the payout, I log in, see how close I am to getting blanked, and if close, I play a dozen tables for an hour or two. I've never been shutout because I can play more tables than those at the 100 level.

So, the question is: Will players hammer the tables with the hope that one of the top 4 get put in the hospital and can't defend or will people do what I do and play just enough to get the amount that they want?

I predict that after a week or three, #5 will learn that he cannot enter the top 4, so his rake will fall to an amount that beats the fellow at the top of the tier below him, 8 spots down. With the old payout, every player in the top 20 could grab an extra $50 or $100 with one additional spot. The thinking would be, “Hell, it's Friday night. Someone above me has to have a date or a drinking problem and isn't playing so I'm playing.” Not now. The only way to grab $50 is by finding a sheep to shear. The Beast will reduce the number of players who are motivate to play additional tables. Once locked into a tier, the object is to shear sheep, not move up the Beast. Unless at the bubble, with a chance of moving up, the Beast stops motivating.

Back to pecking order. I already see a change in behavior. I now predict that the top players will start enjoying weekends. Machine, TGS, Leatherass, Q-tip, Gift of Gab, any of the people able to hammer 20+ tables will enjoy their weekends and start working Monday-Friday because they know they can always catch up. They might miss calculate a week or two, but they won't for long.

Like the fellow who banked on taking my $1,000, the people who get caught on the last day will get skinned. They will think it's okay to lose $2,000 because they will get $2,500 on Saturday. Late Friday night they will learn that they are minus $1,000, not plus $500. They won't be around long. If they survive, they will start playing just enough hands to beat the top $250 player, somewhere around 14. Instead of playing more to steal or defend a spot in the top 20, number 5 will reduce his play to somewhere around #10. He has to reduce his tables, or stakes, because his bankroll took a hit while he was learning the pecking order.

Or, I could be totally wrong.

We'll soon see.

Legal Notice: Trying to understand the Beast can cause headaches, nausea, itching, hives, rashes, hemorrhoids, diarrhea, gingivitis, and male-pattern-baldness.
04-01-2015 , 09:46 AM
There is a flaw in the Beast calculations. Money is being moved from lower tiers to upper tiers.

Let's use $10,000 as the share amount and focus on the top 3 groups.

At 10k in Beast money, we know EXACTLY what the payouts should be: 1 tier 1, 2 tier 2, 5 tier 3.

Player 2 gets the excess from tier 1 once building begins on the 2nd 10k tranche. After reaching 16k in Beast money, $1,500 has been created for tier 1 and given to Player 2. At this point, player 2 has the maximum, so money starts falling to player 3. At 20k, Player 3 now has $1,000 from tier 2 money plus another $1,000 from tier 1 money. Player 2 has $1,500 from tier 1 and $1,000 from tier 2.

At the 20k Beast mark, $1,000 is missing from tier 2 because Player 2 has taken $1,000 from tier 2 with him into tier 1. After Player 2 hits $2,500 at 16k in Beast, Player 3 should get nothing. The money being built from tier 1 should all go to Player 2 and the $1,000 that Player 2 took from tier 2 should return to the bottom of tier 2 and build another spot in tier 2.

At 20k in Beast money, we know EXACTLY what the payouts should be: 2 tier 1, 4 tier 2, 10 tier 3.

As I write, the Beast is over $28k, almost to the 3rd full tranche mark at 30k. At 30k, there should be EXACTLY 3 tier 1, 6 tier 2, and 15 tier 3. As I write, there are already 3 full $2,500 shares with Player 4 sitting on over $1,800. At the 30k Beast mark, there should only be 3 full $2,500 shares. Player 4 should have exactly $1,000. And, Player 9 should have exactly $1,000. It's not working this way.

Player 9 only has $377. He will not reach a full $1,000 share when the Beast hits 30k.

Player 24 should be approaching his full share of $250 share as the Beast approaches 30k. Right now, Player 23 won't have a full $250 share and Player 24 will have only $100.

With 3 tranches in play at 30k, Player 84 should have a full $100 share. He won't. Neither will 83, 82, or 81.
04-01-2015 , 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WPN Rep

Residual funds (between multiples of $10,334) as the Beast grows are applied to the top places in Tier 2, Tier 3, and Tier 4—maintaining each respective cap amounts.
Who_Yaw^^

I think we are getting a little off track. Idk about you guys but i'm exhausted reading the same arguments. WPN Rep says that this is going to go for several rounds and MAY stick around. If there was more conversation about how to structure the beast I think that would be more constructive. The beast is here to stay, the rake will not change, and the only thing we have influence on is the payout structure. The quicker we all realize that the quicker we can get to making it better for the players.

I think someone might've mentioned what i'm about to propose, but I can't be too sure since I skimmed through quite a bit. It seems that the majority who play SSNL feel that they shouldnt have to contribute to the top 4-5 grinders. While I don't entirely agree I think a solution could be splitting the beast into a High Stakes and Low Stakes Beast.

I imagine there will be a lot of debate of what the cutoff is btwn 100nl and 200nl, but I'd say 100nl for High stakes seems reasonable for now and then starting at 50nl and down for the Low stakes. This shouldn't deter a lot of the top beast players because I don't think it will change all too much, but I'd have to look at the numbers ofc. I think the old payout structure for both would be best.

The immediate problem I see with this is that a player who plays 50nl and 100nl will be playing for 2 leaderboards. And if the cutoff were to be 200nl the problem would still exist btwn 100nl and 200nl. Thoughts?
04-01-2015 , 12:49 PM
I think the beast could be ok if ran in conjuction with other promotions. On stars they have those jackpot hands when leading up to a hand milestone. Maybe WPN could do something like that instead of the beast once every month or so.
04-01-2015 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 99N3WBz
Who_Yaw^^

I think we are getting a little off track. Idk about you guys but i'm exhausted reading the same arguments. WPN Rep says that this is going to go for several rounds and MAY stick around. If there was more conversation about how to structure the beast I think that would be more constructive. The beast is here to stay, the rake will not change, and the only thing we have influence on is the payout structure. The quicker we all realize that the quicker we can get to making it better for the players.

I think someone might've mentioned what i'm about to propose, but I can't be too sure since I skimmed through quite a bit. It seems that the majority who play SSNL feel that they shouldnt have to contribute to the top 4-5 grinders. While I don't entirely agree I think a solution could be splitting the beast into a High Stakes and Low Stakes Beast.

I imagine there will be a lot of debate of what the cutoff is btwn 100nl and 200nl, but I'd say 100nl for High stakes seems reasonable for now and then starting at 50nl and down for the Low stakes. This shouldn't deter a lot of the top beast players because I don't think it will change all too much, but I'd have to look at the numbers ofc. I think the old payout structure for both would be best.

The immediate problem I see with this is that a player who plays 50nl and 100nl will be playing for 2 leaderboards. And if the cutoff were to be 200nl the problem would still exist btwn 100nl and 200nl. Thoughts?
I think this is a fairer way of doing it. This would help players move up stakes quicker which is good for the higher stakes guys in the long run anyway. Win-Win for everyone.
04-01-2015 , 01:38 PM
99N3WBz,

I did make a suggestion on how to make the Beast better. See my post #81 starting about halfway down. I have not advocated getting rid of it. I'm a top 100 player, so I profit from it.

I like your suggestion, too. I like spreading the money around to more players.

I believe the question for the site is over how to generate more hands/tables/rake. Can the top 100 generate more than players 101-1000? And within the top 100, can the top 12 generate more than 13-100? Right now, WPN has decided to focus on the top 12. Okay. We will have a proxy rake total through Beast points in a few more days. After a few weeks, we'll have an answer.
04-01-2015 , 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CastleFrank13
Eckfreak don't throw out numbers you don't know are accurate, it makes your posts completely useless. Comeback with some solid numbers and we can have a discussion.
Added the beast points earned from last week. Just click previous weeks results.

Those numbers are accurate. I added the top 12 exactly. Then estimated the rest. Everyone that earned between 8000 - 8999 I gave them 8500, so on and so forth.

They don't show what points people earned below 1000th place so that's why I used 500K points for everyone else. I think that is a very conservative number and is probably a lot higher.

If you are saying that adding up what every ones points are from last week based on the standings that WPN puts out is not accurate then what is accurate?
04-01-2015 , 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Who_Yaw
Like the fellow who banked on taking my $1,000, the people who get caught on the last day will get skinned. They will think it's okay to lose $2,000 because they will get $2,500 on Saturday. Late Friday night they will learn that they are minus $1,000, not plus $500. They won't be around long.
These aren't exactly the "sheep" that I am concerned about.
04-01-2015 , 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eckfreak
Added the beast points earned from last week. Just click previous weeks results.

Those numbers are accurate. I added the top 12 exactly. Then estimated the rest. Everyone that earned between 8000 - 8999 I gave them 8500, so on and so forth.

They don't show what points people earned below 1000th place so that's why I used 500K points for everyone else. I think that is a very conservative number and is probably a lot higher.

If you are saying that adding up what every ones points are from last week based on the standings that WPN puts out is not accurate then what is accurate?
You saying 500k points for everyone else without having any basis for that number is actually the same as if I said below 1000 earned only 500 points total. It is straight out guessing on your part so come back with some real numbers OK.
04-02-2015 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Who_Yaw
99N3WBz,

I did make a suggestion on how to make the Beast better. See my post #81 starting about halfway down. I have not advocated getting rid of it. I'm a top 100 player, so I profit from it.

I like your suggestion, too. I like spreading the money around to more players.

I believe the question for the site is over how to generate more hands/tables/rake. Can the top 100 generate more than players 101-1000? And within the top 100, can the top 12 generate more than 13-100? Right now, WPN has decided to focus on the top 12. Okay. We will have a proxy rake total through Beast points in a few more days. After a few weeks, we'll have an answer.
I would imagine its top 100> 101-1000, 13-100>top12

I thought the Beast Roars was a great idea so that MSNL and the high volume SSNL guys had a shot at making extra cash. I mean anytime a site throws 20k at you/week its going to be great for the players, but I think that 20k could be distributed in a way where its better for the ecosystem. iirc during Beast Roars you more or less had to rake 2k/week to get an extra 1k in cash prize on top of the regular cash prize for the Beast. While thats great for me personally and the other 19, its not so great for the 21st and down.

Now it's easy for me/anyone to suggest "hey WPN add 20k/week again. That was great!", but I do actually believe it ends up being the most optimal for both WPN and the players. I would just structure the Roar payout pretty much exactly how they are doing it now. Instead of 1k for the top 20 i'd make Tiers distributing the 20k in that manner. And keep the regular payout structure for the regular Beast

Now building off of what I suggested a couple posts above if there were to be a High/Low stakes Beast you could allocate that 20k to both pools. I wouldn't recommend an even split but smth along the lines of 80%/20% to the High and Low respectively.

This stuff is all speculative ofc, but I know WPN did vwell during Beast Roars and I think it would be a mistake to not entertain the idea of bringing it back.
04-02-2015 , 06:42 PM
this will make the guys up top work harder 4 sure
04-02-2015 , 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokeYourFace
this will make the guys up top work harder 4 sure
Not only work harder but get no additional funds for their efforts. Once they are in the top tier they can't make anymore money so the beast rake they pay starts going to all players below them. Not sure how many people this has occurred too.
04-03-2015 , 05:22 AM
Something has people excited. One day to go and the Beast is way bigger this week.
04-03-2015 , 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Schupick
Something has people excited. One day to go and the Beast is way bigger this week.
No one likes to be on the bubble.

      
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