He is willing to pay as long the money goes back to paying players. Why would he pay a new company that didnt loan him the money? There is the possibility if he pays the new ownership will pocket the money and run with it. Besides, BG is the only player to publicly adress this issue.

no, he isn't

imo barry should just sign a contract that he will pay when the deal comes through and just pay the new mgmt since they bought full tilt's balance sheet. The money borrowed came from US players and the rest of the worldso he owes all of them not just us.

If someone legally buys your debt then you pay that person. What is the issue?

Furthermore I don't see the thinking behind conditioning repayment of a debt on certain unrelated actions of the creditor. You can't borrow money and then say you will only pay it back if the person or institution does XYZ.

Can I tell my bank I will only repay my mortgage if they divest from the Saudi family?

The answer is no, I cannot. If I borrowed money from Charles Manson I would have to pay that money back to Charles Manson, not his victims.

this x1000, hard to understand how a guy like Barry Greenstein can have such a noob/incorrect view of how to handle this situation tbh.

If someone legally buys your debt then you pay that person. What is the issue?


Was there an announcement that the sale is completed? or are they still thinking about it?

i doubt barrys $400k will make a great difference, its only to make sure his name in the poker world is not dragged into anything FT related.

Some of you guys amaze me.

If Tapie bought the entire company with assets and debts, of course I would owe them, but that's not what they're doing. The DOJ essentially owns FTP, so I contacted them and asked what I should do. They said I could pay them and the money would go towards fines levied against FTP. I asked whether we could start a fund to pay the players instead. I told them that if they get a bunch of money but the players don't get paid, it's going to be a big public relations problem for them.

They gave me the impression that a fund was possible if the players don't get paid through the sale, after the case was resolved. In no way did the person I talked to think this money was Tapie's or part of the sale.

yeah me too. You're done more than enough on here to explain your position, something none of us are either entitled to or indeed have any justification whatsoever to opine over.

The facts are pretty simple here so I'd just like to thank you for coming on here and talking about personal arrangements as a show of solidarity by being upfront and showing support to those of us who feel aggrieved still. I lost a few hundred on FTP which is neither here nor there to most(although it's enough that I felt it), but I don't have the slightest ill will towards you over your decision to act this way - it makes perfect sense IMO. Personally I'd have been a lot more flippant with them in your position.

Now that the GBT deal is off can people understand why it wasn't a great idea for Barry to just write them a check for money he never actually owed to them?!?!

I TOTALLY respect Barry's point, however, JUST PUT THE MONEY ON DEPOSIT AT YOUR ATTORNEY'S ESCROW ACCOUNT.

The problem with your fans (and I am one of them!) is that they had to put money into an account which was then taken out and loaned to you. You state you are stand up and pay your debts, we believe you. Pay back the loan to your attorney's escrow account - and then let the other parties fight over who actually gets the money. Then your hands are clean.

This can be easily done tomorrow with a wire transfer or check.

Heh, if Barry owes the money to Stars now they can just deduct it from his salary.

Barry is spot on here. I'm not giving the money to anybody until I know for sure it's going straight to the players. If he does anything else it's more than likely going to get lost in the wind. I sure as hell wouldn't give it to the government. I sure as hell wouldn't give it back to FTP, regardless if I owed them. Clearly giving it to Tapie would have been ******ed.

When the company you owe is the shadiest and scummiest in the business, I think it's ok to bypass your debt and pass it on to the people they stole from.

it amazes me that 2p2 amazes you. read NVG for a day then you'll be enlightened.

*cough* UB/AP *cough*

I agree. However, just for fun, let's say that Barry happens to find out that a friend is being stiffed by FTP for (coincidently), $400,000. He then pays that individual 400K. Is he then morally and righteously off the hook?

C'mon man. The dirty little secret shouldn't even be a secret. Most so-called poker pro's don't have 400K sitting around in cash. Get with the program. They mostly live off of businessmen or terrible poker players. The economy is in the tank and online sites are mostly shut down, so if you think that these guys have 400K in the drawer then I think you are wrong.

Most of these high rollers live week to week. Not that they will be homeless, but they are constantly under the gun and 95 percent who have money, owe at least one other person a ton themselves.

Reality is not what you think it is.

Don't pay it back imo till you are sure 100% that it will go back to the players..

I've always had alot of respect for you but your view is pretty amazing too.

How is it possible to think that you have any say in what happens with the money once it is paid back to its rightful owner? Which is FTP, currently "essentially owned" by the DOJ as you say. If DOJ is in control of FTP what happens to that money is at their discretion. It's really that simple.

How is it possible to miscontrue his view so badly? It's obvious he's gonna pay whoever ends up owning the debt. And once he pays the debt, i'm sure he realizes that he has no say on what they do with the money.

But aside from what you think, corporate law is far from "really that simple". And until the details of ownership are worked out... its his right to tell Tapie to shove it when they contact him about a debt that they dont own. It's also his right to suggest to the DOJ that they should start a fund to pay the players.

YEAH GOOD IDEA. Let's just give it to the government and hope they sort everything out.

The DOJ doesn't own FTP. They simply took it through force, just like they do with everything else. Giving the money to the most corrupt organization ever assembled would be ******ed. Do not give our money to the government, Barry.

Yes, what DOJ does with the money is of course at their discretion. Barry is attempting to use his debt as leverage for the sake of the players. He is not required to do this, but it will hopefully get the ball rolling in the right direction ie. get a fund started.

Excuses excuses excuses. Everybody owes everybody and none of the little guys (average poker player) will get squat. God only knows what else has gone on that people haven't heard about.

Imagine the stuff that went on that never got public? Imagine the stories these poker players could tell.....owing money to every living human, having IRS liens in the millions. Just imagine what they did to their own families. Brutal people here who do whatever it takes not to pay their own way.

The US Government seized various assets of Full Tilt Poker located in the US like it's domain and US based bank accounts in accordance with US law, but FTP as a company, is incorporated in Alderney in the Channel Islands, which is under the legal jurisdiction of the Bailiwick of Guernsey, which is a Crown Dependency of the United Kingdom. IE: not a US company. The US Government cannot and has not seized the FTP company itself. FTP has not filed for bankruptcy, though it's gambling license has been suspended by the Alderney Gambling Control Commission.

A debt owed to FTP is owed to FTP and not the DOJ, not the Tapie Group, not players owed money by FTP. If FTP goes bankrupt, the disposition of the debt would be subject to the bankruptcy laws in Alderney. Otherwise, nothing changes. Presumably, the DOJ has blocked financial transactions to FTP, so that payments to FTP would be seized and applied to the fines. The DOJ is not a party to Barry's debt and cannot force Barry to make seizable payments, though he could do it voluntarily and they can encourage him to do so. It appears he chooses not to.

Barry and FTP are free to negotiate alternative repayment arrangements for the contingency that the DOJ could allow payments to FTP in the future. For example, the two parties could agree to reduce Barry's debt or to guarantee that it be applied to player repayment in exchange for Barry not paying it now to the DOJ. Barry and the Tapie Group could negotiate repayment terms contingent on Tapie buying FTP. For example, Tapie appears to have offered to reduce his debt in agreement for him stating he would pay it to them (and not the DOJ). They could then use this contingent asset as collateral in the deal to purchase FTP.

It sounds like Barry is motivated in such negotiations to help assure that his repayments ultimately help fund payments to players. Barry is free to use what leverage he has to achieve any goals he wants, and I applaud him for his goals here. If the DOJ clears the way, he owes FTP, and if Tapie buys them, he would have to pay them absent a deal or litigation judgement under Alderney law. So, Barry might not achieve his goals, but more power to him for driving as aggressively as possible towards them.

no Barry would still orally and legally still owe the 400K to FTP.

Barry dont pay until they pay, makes sense to me.