Poker Stars $10/$20 Limit Razz $1 Ante - 8 players
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3rd Street: (0.8 SB)
Hero: 8 3 4___Hero raises
Seat 2: xx xx 9____Seat 2 folds
Seat 3: xx xx Q____Seat 3 brings in for $3____Seat 3 folds
Seat 4: xx xx 5____Seat 4 folds
Seat 5: xx xx 3____Seat 5 folds
Seat 6: xx xx J____Seat 6 folds
Seat 7: xx xx J____Seat 7 folds
Seat 8: xx xx 4____Seat 8 completes____Seat 8 calls

4th Street: (5.1 SB) (2 players)
Hero: 8 3 4 6___Hero bets
Seat 8: xx xx 4 4____Seat 8 calls

5th Street: (3.55 BB) (2 players)
Hero: 8 3 4 6 7___Hero bets
Seat 8: xx xx 4 4 6____Seat 8 calls

6th Street: (5.55 BB) (2 players)
Hero: 8 3 4 6 7 8___Hero checks___Hero calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4 4 6 8____Seat 8 bets

7th Street: (7.55 BB) (2 players)
Hero: 8 3 4 6 7 8 5___Hero
Seat 8: xx xx 4 4 6 8 xx____Seat 8

Just depends on the villain really. A lot of players will check back an unimproved 8 here (especially if he has a 7 in the hole), and some people will bet for value or even as a bluff. Against the first camp, a lead is better, against the second, a check/raise is better (you'll very rarely find yourself facing an awkward river 3 bet if you check/raise). Since I think most people tend to fall into category 1, a lead seems better by default.

then why didn't he check back on 6th?

Because hero is showing three to a 7, so he bets to charge the draw to a 7 but might feel there's no value in betting the river unimproved, especially if he has an 876 himself (relatively likely).

Also because most people have bet-when-checked-to syndrome on all streets except 7th. Just an empirical observation, no particular logic involved.

bet out

c/r

This is good thinking, but what regulars do in spots like this can vary a lot from limit to limit. At 30/60 this is a c/r and it isn't even close (except vs. specific nitty villains), not sure about stars 10/20. One advantage to c/r at any limit vs. an observant opponent is that it should reduce the amount of v-bets he makes in similar spots with marginal hands. Here, hero may not call a v-bet UI, but villain may not realize that.

BET.

I am going for a check raise here

I don't like to check because a good villain is able to check behind!

You'd be glad to have him do that if you paired again on the river.

That for sure.

Right, so put it this way.

If you have it, you bet
If you don't, you check

What can a "good" villain do with this information? Is that good or bad for you?

P.S. When the check-raise succeeds you make twice as many bets and when you bet and he calls

Exactly what i wrote in my first answer: BET (in this particular situation: "you have it").

To your question:
I my second answer I wrote that i don't like a check/raise because you are not sure that villain is going to bet.
- A good villain is able to check behind and you lose a bet.

- A good villain is somebody that is able to don't fall in traps, check when he knows that he is beaten and oppo will call or go for a check raise... etc.


Cyaaaaa

I think you're missing my point. If you follow the script I have above, you will be in serious trouble a lot, because your opponent will know where you are. I am not advocating that you bet if you have it and check if you don't, because this will make it very easy to play against you.

If you have your opponents trained to check behind when you check with their kinda marginal hands, this is a FANTASTIC thing. So in addition to the benefits of not being readable, getting your opponents to check behind in position a lot is freakin great.

Specifically because you mention a good opponent I think checking is bad. Against a lolbad player who isn't going to catch onto your lines, do whatever makes the most EV sense.

And again, it's OK to whiff this check-raise sometimes because you get double when it works. He would actually need to check behind 1/2 of the time or more to make betting better than check-raising.

Not exactly, because you're not accounting for the times that Hero check-raises and loses...

I must be missing something, cuz this seems like a pretty standard lead to me.

Yeah although I'm prepared to wave my hands and claim that the effect is relatively slight.

It's a straw man to say that if you don't check/raise in this spot, you're not check/raising ever. In fact, always check/raising in this spot is just as transparent as never check/raising, and is trickier to balance because whereas a lead can be just about any hand you don't want to negative freeroll (in some situations this can be a hand as weak as a smooth T), a check/raise is polarized and the only way you could balance it is if you river check/raise as a bluff, which seems suicidal.

Are you only check/raising your very strong hands? If so, villain in this hand can bet/fold his made hands for the same price as calling a lead OR three-bet you if he has you boardlocked, in which case your line just opens up that (admittedly slight) freeroll for your opponent but extracts no extra value from the remainder of his range. But in "actual poker land" people almost never fold legitimate hands to river check/raises, however, in "actual poker land" villain in this hand likely has a very marginal showdown hand* (he completed 3rd over a single wheel card) and rarely shows up with an 86 (which, if he has, he probably rivered).

*More than half the time, as you put it.

We're trying to raise your standards.

Holy cow Becchino. How complicated is it.

If you don't hit 7th, you still have to call. Most of the time, you won't hit 7th. So if he checks an 86 behind, you're saving a full bet every time you miss, which is most of the time. Therfore you should be happy to see him checking an 86 behind here, even though you missed a bet this time. In the long run, you're making money.

As far as I know in India cows are sacred

Probably I cannot explain myself but on one point am I sure, on the long run you won't make more money; you will do exactly the same money.

Default statistics and standard deviation numbers.

PS; Ok, I am a strange player ... and for this reason I like to bet there ... I am not an ABC player ...

oii vay

I dont' write "wtf" in jewish but I stay on my opinion ... but I accept your, of course

Simple math/stats

anyone whos debating for a lead here dosent play enough razz because this is the easiest check raise..dont think ive ever seen anyone decent check back a 68 here