Really not sure how any of this is relevant, in fact I think it makes things worse that you work IN a poker room, and don't understand how increasing the size of the blind affects the play of the game.

So for the sake of not getting into a poo flinging war I am moving on from responding directly to you and doing what I probably should have done from the beginning, answer the question posed to us.

No, the extra $1 is not a deal breaker to me in terms of money lost per orbit in blind postings. Yes, the effect the increased blind has on the play of the game in terms of increasing the average pot size and decreasing the average stack to pot ratios is a deal breaker.

I think it is a tough situation to be in and I am pretty sure that it will be impossible to make everyone happy. I wish they would have just opened with 1/3NL and 3/6limit instead of 1/2 and 2/4. IF that would have happened this would not be an issue at all. I understand that the poker room of course wants more action, more players, more rake, etc. but the players who play there are playing for a reason. It might be convenience, it might be the workers but for me it is the players and the levels. As the poster above said the 1/3 will play bigger and for those of us with smaller bank rolls or are new to the game 1/2 is a nice transition. If 1/3 is bringing in the "younger" crowd it is also going to make the game play bigger, not because of the blinds but because of the players.

For me, a person who lives less than 4 miles from the rivers, I will not drive directly past the rivers to play 1/3 at the meadows. If I am going to play 1/3 then I will just stay close to home. However when I am there for a slot promotion or if I am in the area I will of course continue to play there. OK I am done rambling and I have no idea if I made any sense but I am done.

tampa hard rock has 1/2 nl like $50 to 100 max and 1/3nl 100-300 so that is always a possible suggestion

I enjoy playing at both the Rivers and the Meadows, and it's great that the two rooms have different structures, different customer bases, and different styles. Depending on my mood and who I'm with, I could wind up at either place for a typical session.

I would hate to lose the option of having two very different rooms, so I suppose my vote would be in favor of leaving things as they are.

Chillwad I do understand everything you said, I played long before i Dealt You need to read between the lines and understand spin control. AS to PROFFMIKE's idea I will tell you I already proposed this as did others not sure if the state allows but will revisit. WE are not trying to anger anyone just expand market share in different demograffic. WE want games for those with limited bankrolls but we also want more higher rollers to play at the Meadows . Trying to find how or the right balence will be key please keep suggestions coming. Gary

FRomaggio thanks for the commennt I like your honesty and will pass it on, but here is the problem We at the Meadows dont want to be the 2cd choice or the red headed step child we want to improve and grow, we are Avis number 2 we have to try harder!! You see are problem here. 2 masters Those with lots of buy in money those with less and as always profits. Thanks for the comment Gary

Gary - Yes, I understand the desire to be #1, but there's room for different flavors. The Rivers has a big edge in their centralized location, so they're probably always going to attract more money/action, and a younger crowd; they're going after the high-energy atmosphere. The Meadows is going to attract an older crowd, and one that doesn't want to be dealing with the city hassles.

I think you folks need to create differences, not similarities; if you're the same, people in the middle will go with the closer casino.

Here are some of the things you've done right to differentiate yourselves:

• bigger poker tables, so a more comfortable space
• sharing the bad beat jackpot around the room; people seem to like this
• fun/interesting tournament concepts, including the midnight madness
• 2/4 and 1/2 for people who want that option

Early on, you made a good move to match the Rivers $1/hr comps. That would have been a bad move to keep it at .50/hr. Perhaps something more in the comps area would be nice - maybe some free drink tickets (I know they're around, but only the very regular patrons seem to be in that club). Some kind of little extras might help.

Another idea: different types of events, or entertainment ideas - perhaps something that ties in your racing with the poker. You've got a lot of space by the poker room - maybe some kind of casual dining option? A few big TVs might pull in the folks who want to watch some sports - that's an area for improvement in both rooms. It could be a particular edge to you for folks that would like to avoid the parking mess during football season.

Anyway, when I go to the Meadows, it's usually because I'm with a few buddies, casual players, and we're looking for a more laid back evening, a more comfortable environment, and we're gonna splash around a bit at lower stakes and have a few beers. This is your advantage - the space, the more relaxed, friendly atmosphere, the game room feel. Gotta leverage it.

Speaking of that: Another area for improvement is general competence of the floor, especially managing the tables and lists - ensuring that the games are being treated fairly as they go short-handed, break, as new games start, and as new players arrive. I must tell you that nothing makes my buddies complain more than seeing 8 or 9-handed tables continue to get the new players, while they sit at 5 or 6-handled tables that are struggling to keep their players - and these problems seem to occur every time we're there. They ask the floor to move, and are told "no" - but then they see regular players get up and relocate on their own. Believe me, at least one of them gets annoyed almost every time about this, and from what I've seen, they have a good point. Better flooring could jump you above the Rivers; they have problems in that area as well.

Frommaggio, thanks for your post it was well thought out and very informative in all areas. Both what we during right and what we can improve on. The next time you come in introduce yourself to me if Im there {Big Gary} If im not tell shift sup. Jamison or Peter who you are cause Im going to have Peter read this whole post, you will get your free drink no problem. I thank you for the feedback and taking the time to give it. sincerely Gary Patz

This is absolutely correct. People in general are lazy, and will always go with convience-----unless the other option is DIFFERENT or BETTER

The drive to the Rivers or Meadows is almost the same for me from Youngstown. (little over an Hour) However, I come to the Meadows because I enjoy the room and all it has to offer.
(1)Downstairs away from the main casino.
(2)Nice Ambience (love the lighting)
(3)Better Tournaments
(4)Better Staff, more player friendly
(5)Nice lounge area
(6)Close restroom

The game size doesn't matter to me personally, but I can see where others would have that on their list.

BADUU, thanks for the comments and the kind words. AS a locals casino outside the citys main pop. area we at the Meadows know we must try harder to attract clients, one of those ways is superior customer service,we really try to do that every day. Its nice to know somebody sees us trying, Feel free to suggest to me anything else you would like to see,and as I said some really nice promos are coming!! sincerely Gary

I'm shocked someone who is concerned about SPR cares about this. If you are poker savvy enough to care about the SPR then why wouldn't you use the blind increase to exploit the tendency of recreational players to limp fold? Most "live regs" won't make any adjustment to a $1 blind increase, but I'm assuming you'll be able to, so really it should be to your advantage.

FWIW Rivers tournament selection is pretty solid and includes a midnight madness tournament.


@Gary

I'm a Rivers reg. I have only been to the Meadows twice. Some of the reasons I don't go to Meadows are...
1. Stakes - $2/$5 had zero interest when I went, and I can only imagine there are never any games higher than $2/$5. Also the short stacks in the $1/$2 were annoying.

2. Distance - Rivers is a prime location obviously.

3. Action - Mainly due to their being less players, there are less action players/donks that give away free money.


Things I would suggest to improve the volume of players...
1. FREEROLLS - recreational players are horny for freerolls. Instead of having one big freeroll, such as a 10k ect, why not have a daily freeroll? You could have a very fast structure, and the top 3 players (or something of that nature) all get a buy in at $1/$3 NLHE. This would attract lots of busto younger kids, and though there are a few people who might only play the freeroll, most people will play cash whether or not they bink the freeroll.
You could expand this idea to, one player gets a buy in at $2/$5 or $5/$10 (maybe once a week/month whatever is feasible for you guys). I'm not sure how often those games run, but if some player I viewed as average or worse was playing $5/$10 with freeroll money, I would easily make the trip out to play in that game, and I know I wouldn't be the only one. It would generate higher limit games with more action.
To save money but still generate interest and action, you could have a concept like PokerStarsTheBigGame did. You could freeroll someone into a game and they could keep all the profit with no makeup. This would really only be relevant if you decided to do it for a game $5/$10 or higher since a person might just want to pocket $1,000 or play on scared money. Something like that would certainly generate players who play higher stakes in the Pittsburgh area.

2. Heads Up - Playing heads up is becoming increasingly popular. Hosting a heads up tournament, and/or allowing people to play HU cash games would be beneficial. It sounds like a waste of resources since it takes up a whole table and dealer, but it falls under the category doing things to separate yourself from other PA Casinos.

3. Bad Beat Jackpot (Mini) - The BBJ is another thing that drives recreational players wild. No matter what casino you play at, you always hear talk about how big each surrounding casinos BBJ is. Something that might attract people is once your BBJ reaches $X - whatever you deem fit - you extract a small portion of it and have a Nightly Bad Beat. For example, lets say $X is $100,000 for simplicity's sake. Once your BBJ reaches $100k, you extract $10k and then have a Nightly Bad Beat that Saturday (or whatever you busiest day is) where the best hand that loses from 6pm-7pm, 7pm-8pm, 8pm-9pm, and 9pm-10pm scoops $2,500 of the $10k. That would give people an incentive to stay longer in the night. You could even split it into 10 hours or whatever. IMO splitting it between four or five separate mini jackpots spread over an hour for each one would be ideal.
Not only would it help volume for that specific night, but people would advertise it for you since everyone always talks about BBJ's "Hey did you hear every time Meadows Bad Beat gets to 100k now, they have a 10k mini BBJ that coming Saturday? It's already at 96k and will def be over 100k by Saturday! ZOMG we have to go this weekend!"

KYDD I was hoping I might hear from you I read the Rivers thread daily and you seem to be their main poster and spokesperson. Thanks for the taking the time to post to speak for the other side of the aisle on this issue. I will have mgt. read your post. I was wondering do I know you, my name is Gary Patz I use to be part of the underground world in west pa. Some of the people i ran with and know well are Billy Patterson, Bobby Noel, Bernie Domniak,Danny lyle, Blake who I hear is back from LA, plus others, 2 dealers there used to work rooms i ran,lydia and Matt S. Anyhow great to hear from you and look for changes coming,hope to see you and those in your camp soon at thr Meadows. Ps the .2-5 -10 game is running strong on the weekends there was over 25k on the table sat night.

Annoucement !! Tuesday June 7 will start 1-3 n/l also on the weekends we will have 1-2-4. Also this Sunday is our LAST CHANCE WSOP EVENT, 250 buy in 1 seat per 55 players. On sat june 11 35 dollar satty with 20 rebuys to wsop tour. thats at 730 pm. also at 1030 sun a pre tour. super sat turbo for 35. call Poker room for more details 724 503-1700 SEE YOU THIS WEEKEND !!! Gary

Gary, If you win the wsop sat. do you have to play the main event? or can you take the money?

Here is my $.02.

I agree with most of the poster’s view that the Meadows should attempt to differentiate itself from the Rivers. If the Meadows simply tries to copy the Rivers, it will lose because of location. I like the games at the Meadows better because of the way they are played (discussed in above posts). I also like how the room is friendlier and more laid back. It seems that the staff at the Meadows is more flexible to the wishes of the players. With that being said here is what I would like to see:

1. Offer ½ and 1/3 and let the players choose. I’m guessing most of the player at the Meadows would choose ½, but I could be wrong. Offering 1/3 and 1/2/4 does nothing because it just gives you the option to play 2 bigger games.

2. More promotions that are meaningful. For example the cash machine, or whatever the hell that is, seems pretty silly to me, as does handing out 10$ cards if you hit quads. Save that money up and run a freeroll similar to what the rivers did if you play a certain amount. Or even just give random seats to the freeroll away. Just do something that that will allow more than one player per hour to gain from the promotions.

3. This next idea is directed more for me specifically so take it for what its worth. The Rivers refuses to run any tournaments other than NLHE. One of the main reasons I began driving down to the Meadows even though it is a further drive than the Rivers is the HOSE tournaments that ran every Wednesday a few months ago, and then for the 200+ HOSE and PLO tournament during the mini-series the Meadows ran around Moneymaker. This is a distinction that drew me in, and even though the fields were small, non-hold em’ games do have some demand. Try including all kinds of different games in the tournaments schedule and eventually the popularity will grow and it will draw in players that otherwise would not come. During the PLO tourney there were several players that typically only play the 2/5 PLO at the rivers but came down because it was offered.

4. I love KYDD’s ideas of a heads up tournament (I would suggest once a month) and a mini-bad beat. If these ideas are possible they should defiantly be used. Along with those ideas I like what the Meadows is doing with the low buy-in sat. to the WSOP sat. It allows people who are not comfortable playing a 250$ tourney to get some action.

5. Another idea that is directed to me specifically (but could help the Meadows) is to push a 1/3 PLO game with buy ins from 50-200 or 300. The only PLO game in the area is the 2/5 at the Rivers that ends up being huge 2 hours in. ARIA did something very similar and it seems to have been successful by looking at the thread on this forum. This would allow players interested in the game to get their feet wet without risking thousands of dollars. And as poker players know, anyone who tries PLO for a significant amount of time gets hooked.
I would like to add that I do like the feel and the play at the Meadows better than the Rivers. It easier to go and have fun playing. This is due to many of the features that Baduu posted: lighting, lounge, friendly environment and staff. I also feel as though the staff actually listens to the players and will implement some of these changes that are being requested (otherwise I wouldn’t have wasted my time writing this).

---John

Gary, is there a regular PLO game down at the Meadows?

I would definitely like to play some PLO but the 2-5 down the rivers is too big and crazy.

Yes Edog66 there is a PLO game every weekend lately it will now be 1-3 buy in 50 to 300 Thanks for the question Sere you here Gary

Johnw Yes you have to use satty cash for WSOP tour. unless there is a hardship situation. Gary

What I was trying to get at more was could the money be used for other WSOP prelim events, not the main event?

gary there are so many great ideas on this thread that I hope when you relay them back to your boss they are actually considered and not just blown off.
FWIW the ideas that would get me to come in are:
1) Freerolls with $5 dealer add on, even if it was top 2 or 3 get $100 to use at any table I would definitely be there as often as it ran and my wife who used to play ultra micro stakes online would play as well and I think the same would hold true for a lot of people who have never played live. There has to be a way to make this work, I am not sure how but there has to be a way.

2) mini BBJ, There are quite a few rooms in the country that do this and some of them don't wait until it gets to a certain number. It could even be a smaller number than mentioned earlier. I say do it every friday or sat and the amount to be offered was based on the size of the current BBJ. Maybe take 10% off the BBJ and use that for mini BBJ.

3) a friend of mine got a royal and received an envelope with $10. IMO, either make the money larger or eliminate it all together and keep the money in the BBJ or mini BBJ. If the mini BBJ was being used then I would get rid of it all together.

I have a few others but my post is long enough for now.

If you wanted some input from me you could have PM'd me haha. I just looked in this thread for the first time today. It's possible we know each other. I played in a few underground games years ago. I'll come up to Meadows this weekend and introduce myself if you're there. Shouldn't be hard to spot a former nose tackle.

What can you buy in for in the $2-$5-$10 game?

I refuse to play full ring PLO. I think making PLO 6Max would get more action from PLO regs. Still plenty of action in 6Max PLO, but more under control, and better players have a bigger edge.

I just threw out a random number with $100k. You would want it to be fairly big. If the BBJ is 32k and they're giving away $3,200 split four ways ($800) no one is going to get excited about that and want to come in because of it. I think holding out for a certain number is best.

I agree that the $10 envelope is useless. Rivers has a portion of their BBJ go to a prize pool for quad 10s-KKs, quads Aces, a straight flush, a royal, and the actual bad beat - this is also worthless imo. People are going to complain about not getting enough money, and the hassle is more than it's worth.

Your Welcome Gary. I have enjoyed my time playing in your "Division of Poker" events, and in the room in general.
I know Jamison and Billy from their days at poker class and Mountaineer. Quality people.

I also agree with John W. in more mixed events would be great. (also a heads up for a hundo or 2 would be fun) Even though the turnout has been slow, hopefully it gets better over time.

$300 - $1500 with most players buying in for $1000+.

2/5/10 is still not a guaranteed go even on Friday and Saturday but it has been running more often.

I am curious to see if they even get 1/2/4 running and if they do how 1/3 and 1/2/4 effect the 2/5.

gjpsr,

johnw is spot on with his #1 and #5 points. (2, 3, and 4 I don’t have an opinion about.) I bet if you push 1/3 PLO it will gain momentum.

KyddD is probably right about most things he posts in the Rivers thread, but the Meadows is not the Rivers and vice versa. The Meadows should not try to be like the Rivers. I don't think the Meadows will ever capture the higher stake games, nor should they try to (the Rivers doesn’t even get the amount of higher stake games they used to, fwiw). The Meadows has its own atmosphere and should expand upon that feel. 1/3 PLO and giving low stakes NL players the option of 1/3NL, and perhaps 1/2/4, fits the bill.

The Meadows rocks tournaments it seems (I am not much of a turny player, but that's the vibe I get; not a good cash player for that matter, but that’s beside the point). Combine more options for low stakes players with different ideas for tournaments should help the room. (Run all the HU turnies you want for Kydd, et al).

Keep the room’s laid back feel. If you start marketing to (good) higher stake players (like Kydd) you are going to drain all the money from the room faster than you can rake it off.

Good luck,

RJT

Kydd,You must know me or someone who does cause not every body knows I was a former nfl nose tackle. I come in sat. at 9pm but im usaually there early,thanks for giving us another try hope you choose to spend some time here to. Gary