The relevance is that he has given you the algorithm used by his RNG. You can now create a program using the exact same algorithm and you will not be able to predict the outcome of CyberMuppet's program using your version of the "RNG."

Why would you want to make that assumption? Are you at all related to Greg Olden?

My fault.

Business is picking up and I haven't had any time to look at that, make sure it is okay (a couple people PMmed me notes) and post it in NVG.

I have been really busy. It will be up by midday tomorrow.

N:

I agree with your theory that poker players will not punish the sites. I feel that economic efforts should be targeted at the companies that are still profiting from AP/UB. Why should the magazines in our industry accept full page ads from AP/UB and stay repercussion free. The companies that sign up new players through affiliate programs should be hit just as hard for accepting the dirty money and promoting rogue sites. They should be hit just as hard. Their is currently no incentive for Card Player not to take the ads. They are the ones we as a community should target with our anger over these incidents. Eventually if AP no longer advertises their supply of fish dry up and then the sharks move off of the site. WSEX is a perfect example of no fish, sharks stay away even with 75-100% rakeback.

First let me say that I applaud any effort to review hand histories for the purpose of finding statistical anomalies and unfair play from any party. I think more of this kind of thing needs to be done at every level of play by both players and transparent auditing agencies doing blind comparisons of the results.

What I'd like to ask is this... if you believe this is an egregious violation on the part of the site in terms of how they handled the situation, why would you doubt that they do other more subtle (but still unethical) things at any and every other level of play? I mean... it's questionable whether or not anyone directly associated from the site profited from this instance you illustrate (with potentially several other instances), but it hardly seems out of the question. Incompetence and complicity with the site seems rather blurred at the very least. Assuming greed exists, even within the revered halls of a big business, what is to prevent them from undertaking more subtle forms of cheating and dishonesty? And I'm not necessarily saying that all players are cheated, but online sites have an interest in keeping as many fish as possible as happy as possible -- so that they'll keep paying the entry fees and rakes. A subtle long-term screwing of the best players (who will dismiss bad beats more easily and rebuy if necessary), at every level, would make them more money in both the short and the long term if massive amounts of data weren't thoroughly and accurately analyzed.

Here is something I posted today which may make my question a little more clear: Frequency of different bad beats with other statistical poker anomalies...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=200869

Great post Nihilo

PokerEv and Setometer can shed some light on your long term luck but we need software that takes it a step futher. Why PokerEV has not yet finishing the planned update is a mystery. Can anyone explain why?

Also the rumor that when you start playing at a new site you often have beginners luck should be investigated.

In the mean time you (the reader) could help by stating whether
1. you are long term online poker winner
2. you are well below the expected number of flopped sets ( Setometer)
3. your red “Sklansky bug” line is significantly above the Green “actual winnings” line (PokerEV)
4. Number of hands used*

*At least 100000 and must be the latest hands to ensure no bias. It is preferable that all your PokerTracker hands be used for calculation.

Hopefully we will see no trend and that would indicate online poker is clean.

My statement:

1. Yes
2. Well below
3. Significantly above
4. 100.000+

who the **** are u, get the **** out of here u idiot

I just found this thread.

ty to everyone who did work on this, especially op and poster who did the summary.

NP.

Update: I found a professional to edit my summary. His edits will be available by Thursday at which time I will put it up on the other forums.

Sorry for the delays but I am a perfectionist and hate putting my name on unsatisfactory work.

Just saw this now. Thanks Omni, Cornel and everyone else for their work.

+1

very well done

Found this online summary and 2 NY Times Blog Articles as they relate to AP... not sure if they are in this mess anywhere, but here they are again.

http://www.potripper.co.uk/?p=3
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.co...-not-to-cheat/
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.co...own-wide-open/

I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who put their own hard hours into this investigation.

I've been reading this thread and following the developments although I haven't made a post yet.

I'm down for doing a coordinated cancellation of my Cardplayer/Bluff subscriptions and letting them know that we don't support products that are funded by "dirty money" which was stolen from us.

I have it. Took about 2 seconds on a public records search.

Not sure if I should post it here, though.

are you going to cancel your cable as well?

don't, you will get banned

Zimba of CardRunners on UB--from his blog yesterday:

"I just signed up for rakeback today on UB, after 2-3 years without it."

No. Nor my FTP rakeback account either.

The idea is to come up with some things we can do which may both negatively affect the fraudulent sites and those that are helping/supporting them.

I think the t-shirt idea at the World Series would have a much larger affect because it would inform the masses as to the cheating that is going on. Unfortunately, I won't be at there this year so I cannot participate.

The T-shirt idea is great, especially since I have been seeing UB and AP commercial NON-stop on ESPN and ESPN Classic during poker shows. Makes me want to throw the remote right through my LCD.

the shirt would prob get blurred out

just get to the final table then start a convo about what happened

Instead of Jennifer Tilly making stupid comments about how PA had KK when she had JJJKK or that people who watch PAD are just "kids who are high late at night" maybe someone can drop a bomb about AP and UB.

Would they edit it out? Doubt anyone has the balls to do it.

But the point is to raise ppl's awareness. This could happen by someone making a comment or asking a question about the shirt you're wearing. Then you could explain what happened to whoever is interested which would be lots considering most probly play online.

I believe a web link to the summary would be effective. Does anybody know if you can print www.twoplustwo.com's name on a shirt? I don't know the legalities or whatever of this or if 2+2 would like this even.

If we can't print that we could get a website up pretty quickly containing info from this thread. My brother is really good at web-design and I'm sure would be happy to help.

Why the hell are ppl still using UB?!!

either they don't know about it, think it won't affect them, or figure that mostly fish are left so it's still +ev to play