you guys should be flattered that people accused you of being shady imo

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=2437

i wasn't implying you knew if thats not clear, just that you are giving scum bags way too much leeway (like even after Jose sends u that msg its like you're saying you believe there's a 20% chance his stats are real still).

I'm glad you cleared that up, the way you wrote it could be interpreted a couple of ways.

Wow. Still soooo many unanswered questions.

2 quick things:

In addition to the common sociopathic traits, like high intelligence, charm, wrecklessness, etc; there are 2 MAJOR things to know about sociopaths:

In "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout, she explains 2 important things. 1 is that a sociopath is VERY hard to spot due to their charm and cunning ability to manipulate social situations. The number, and only way to truly spot a sociopath without putting them through the rigors of psychological testing, is by their use of guilt and sympathy. This is a tact that prays on the normal person's ability to feel empathy and compassion (a sociopath doesnt feel these things) to gain the upper hand and get their marks to put their guard down. They will do unexplainably shady things, exhibit anti-social behaviour, and cause everyone around them caos and feel backed into a corner where it feels like no matter what they do, they cant win with the sociopath. Then when you confront them about it, BAM!, its "i cant believe you would accuse me of this". "dont you know how much i care for you and have done for you?". "i would never do these things, and im so hurt that you would think of me in this way!". At this point, if you do start to feeling sorry for them, and feel guilty for accusing them, they've got you. This is always done with an almost ribotic disregard for your feelungs and tge stress that the situation is giving you.

This is a classic sociopathic tactic and is the best way to spot them.

Secondly, Stout goes on to say there's only one way to deal with a sociopath. That is to completely ignore them and eliminate them %100 percent from your life. No exceptions. She also warns that they're always more dangerous than you may want to believe.

Lastly, no one has pointed out that most, if not all of the information JM has been given throughout this whole saga has been filtered through Haseeb. Thats a very narrow and specific and biased funnel of information.

One thing Haseeb has never explained (I wonder why) is that why he straight out lied to the scammed players on skype chat logs.

In the early chatlogs he clearly says to the scammed players that if this **** comes public he wont able to live with Jose anymore. When someone asked on that skype chat, how could he even think about living with him after all this, he comes up with this big brother complex crap and other stuff...

Afterwards he stated that he was never gonna live together with the scamming scumbag, he just wanted to keep it quiet so he would have better chance to get the money back...

WTF?

Why not tell the scammed players that explanation if it's true?



Also if Jose was really hacked, the impersonater/hacker on chat was really sick good. He even told Matt he tried something with Henrik day before and it doesnt work, that's why teamviewerpro needs to be downloaded. Hacker must have known the people very well to use Henrik in a fast convo like that...

#1 -- So are we to believe that Lock Poker will not allow a Team Pro to recieve a P2P transfer, but will allow a new player to deposit $100k in one shot? I always thought there were deposit limits, Daily, Weekly, and Monthly --I doubt a brand new account could get these lifted if a Team Pro couldn't get them to lift the P2P limit????

#2 -- Jose then later transfers $40k (I think this is thed number JM stated) to the SamChahuan account so JM can play on it? Wouldn't Lock have a history of these two accounts being involved in $100k session, and now doing a $40k transfer?

The SamChahuan end of this story is leaking like a sieve.

JUNGLEMAN ANSWER THIS QUESTION PLEASE!

If you have nothing to hide you will answer, simple as that.

It's like recieving stolen goods and then selling them, just because someone tells you something is his, if you turn around and sell it and get caught, you are still selling stolen goods!

In this case your "vouching" without checking the facts is one and the same: You sold people Girah's coaching skill. It doesn't matter that you believed it at the time, if you are going to hype someone's skill in order for them to sell a service you are at fault when said service turns out to be a fraud!

Hows do you not understand these things! Just because you trusted something to be true, doesn't mean you are blameless when it turns out to be false... All you needed to say is, "Jeez I really dropped the ball on this one and didn't look into as much as I should have. I'm sorry to anyone who paid this fraud for coaching or was cheated by him based on my recommendations"

Seems like a clear-cut case of fraud to me (knowing material misrepresentation intending for another to rely on it, with such reliance leading to damages)

Also by any standard of accomplice liability DIH is definitely guilty of perpetrating Jose's fraud

Jose is definitely more evil, but they both pretty much have the same liability under U.S. law EDIT: or would if Jose was in US. meant to say under U.S. law, DIH would be liable for criminal actions of Jose if he facilitated them

edit: IF he knew Jose's stats weren't legit. I think this is very likely the case but didn't mean to insinuate that it's 100% DIH is a criminal. My apologies

Agree completely

Anyone who has ever paid Jose a nickel should get together and file a class action lawsuit, naming DiH and Jungleman (as well as any other player who vouched for Jose without checking the facts) as accomplices. They both misrepresented Jose's ability knowing full well the weight those endorsements would carry. If nothing else at least a thorough investigation would be performed --which is likely the only way we'll ever know 1/2 of what went on.

In addition to misrepresenting the player:

1) JM has admitted to dumping $100k into the frauds account and staking him
2) JM has admitted to playing on SamChahuan account
3) there is plenty of circumstantial eveidence to link him to playing on the Girahh account
4) chat logs show they both wanted to cover up the scandal or at least keep it out of the public eye

All in all, there seems to be enough evidence for all three to be swept up in a criminal case for fraud.

EDIT: I really don't think he understands the implications of these charges. This isn't simply about losing some of your rep on 2+2, actual laws were broken here.

Im not accusing anyone, just writing some more information about it. I think its relevant in some ways to this story and since we're all poker players, i think people should know how to spot one because gambling and poker tend attract these types. Plus they're very destructive and potentially very dangerous, do im just dropping knowledge.

Oh..taking the easy way out..huh.....WELL..If questions arent answered and nothing gets resolved..Your Life (poker wise) is not going to be the same.. whos going to really want to play a lying cheater??? cuz im sure thats what you will be known as..and if you do just come out an tell what really happened an what you did..I think people will take it for what its worth..an see that you are a truthfull person and just Fu**ed up..no one is perfect jungle..especially in the poker world!!..everyone makes mistakes in life..not one person can say they always makes the right choices..We learn from our mistakes.. just think man.. Is it really that bad what has happened?? I think NOT.. but lying an just saying the minimum to try an make people happy to get off your back makes it worse.. I dont even think its about the MAing an using others account etc etc anymore.. its about being honest..in my eyes anyways is what everyone wants.. some of your friends on here are not trying to bash you or put you down.. some seem really concerned.. take a step back an really look at haseeb..an ask yourself..is he really looking out for your best interest?? only you know that answer..
I Hope everything works out ..&.. you do whats right..& ..move on from this..
1 last thing.. haseeb.. you can say what you want..but.your intentions are shady & if you are a friend like you say you are..you would leave that man alone..an stop grubbing off him.. Good Day Sir!!

I do not agree. Wrong and unethical as hell yes, but against the law...no.

take it to NVG. otherwise somebody please ban this guy

The evidence shows his links to the fraudster, which makes their vouching for his credibility suspect --unlike Sauce123 who had limited dealings with Jose and wasn't linked to him financially as the other two were. I'm not saying the case would be a success, but details could emerge in an investigation that could unequivically tie these two to the fraud as well --or they could be proven entirely innocent.

Point is, there seems to be more than enough to at least look into a class action suit or criminal charges

Never studied fraud or passed the bar, but come on. No way you can charge someone criminally if all you have on them is chipdumping and playing on an account people don't know is him. Where's the material misrepresentation in chipdumping? Who relied on it and was damaged from it?

Same w/playing on a secret account. The material misrepresentation would be what? Playing when people didn't know it was him? No tlike he said "promise me I'm not Jungleman, keep playing me." By this standard any time you play somebody you're implicitly saying "I'm not somebody who, if you knew my identity, you would play" which would make it criminal basically for any top-5 player int he world to set up a new poker account on a new site

And the "circumstantial evidence" he played on girah's account is so flimsy it probably wouldn't even make it past a grand jury

Please don't talk authoritatively/with certainty about whether somebody is criminally liable if you don't know what you're talking about, it's the height of irresponsibility to start flinging accusations of criminality based on "HE DID SHADY ****" and frame it as being very clearcut

Edit: can't emphasize enough how important INTENT is. You'd have to allege and prove JM knew the falsity of what he was saying and was saying it anyway in order to get people to rely on it and get coached/allow Jose to see their teamviewer, whatever. MAYBE his "I vouch for him" would be enough to get past a grand jury but come on if you think you could even prove under a civil trial standard that JM did anything sanctionable here

As a litigator, I can assure you that a) this would never be certified as a class action, and b) any and all individual fraud claims against JM (and probably DiH) would be LOL'd out of court. Acting unethically is one thing. Meeting the civil standard for fraud (much less the criminal standard) is something else entirely. Establishing personal jurisdiction over Jose in the U.S. would be difficult, even if the claims were valid, and civil lawsuits are rarely worth the time and effort in Europe because tort law is not nearly as plaintiff friendly in the EU as it is in the US.

No, you're misunderstanding my implication. The Fraud would be selling Girah's ability as a coach, the other points were to demonstrate their connection to him

EDIT: Of course I'm not a lawyer and have never studied law

Jungleman,
Your silence with regards to playing on the Girahh account is deafening. There is no evidence to support Jose having the ability to beat even 5/10NL, so how do you explain his accounts ability to seemingly dominate higher stakes NL against proven regs? Was it Jose, Haseeb, or you playing against these high stakes NL regs on the Girahh account? You were staking Jose at the time, you should be able to answer these questions...

Yeah didn't want to get into the class-action stuff b/c we didn't learn it in civ pro. But you don't think DIH would be liable if it can be shown that he knew Jose's stuff was made up?

I mean, there are cases of people asking DIH to vouch and him saying "yeah he's def worth the money." Doesn't that at a minimum make him guilty of fraud if he knows the guy's a fraud?

Also what about accomplice liability? Standard's pretty loose for intending to aid/abet and I can't imagine it doesn't apply to DIH. Interested in your opinion b/c while I think we need to keep hysterical bloodhungry tantrums out of this forum, it is worth discussing criminal options if it can be done responsibly

I just asked him that privately --basically that's what I was getting at in my OP --which seems to have poorly written since it was so misunderstood.

Again not lawyer or law student. It just seems to me that people ripped off by Girah who paid for coaching based on these recommendations should have some legal recourse if the recommendations were knowingly false, No?

Depends. If you could prove that Haseeb knew that Jose was not the poker player that he claimed to be, then yes, that is fraud.Haseeb was instrumental in Jose's blitzkrieg campaign.

Not much different from Enron cooking their books.

I assume you are talking strictly about the coaching at the moment.

Just off the top of my head, DIH or JM saying "he's worth the money" is a statement of opinion. Depending on the state, it is possible to press a fraud claim based on a false statement of opinion, if you can show that the opinion was not truly held, but it is difficult. There also would be a serious question of whether reliance was reasonable. As JM pointed out, people tout each other all the time, and everyone knows it. Also, the trier of fact is not going to be very savvy about poker in all likelihood. For a lot of uneducated people, poker is still a lot more luck than skill, and if you hold that viewpoint, then you are unlikely to think that Player A's reliance on Player B's assurance that Player C is sick was reasonable.


Lastly, how many people actually received coaching from Jose, and did any of them fork over real money (e.g., more than $100K for coaching). I seriously doubt it. The U.S. is not a "loser pays" country. You would burn through $100K more quickly than you realize. Individual issues surely would predominate, so there would be no way to certify a class.

On the criminal front, you have to remember that a private citizen cannot initiate a criminal proceeding. You obviously can report activity to the police, but the question of whether to investigate is left to police, and the question of whether to indict is left to the prosecutor. You, as the victim, have no affirmative say (although you obviously can make a prosecution nearly impossible by refusing to cooperate). What is the likelihood that the police or a prosecutor will be interested in pursing criminal action for a small time scam where the main player is located in Portugal? No chance.

Wouldn't the fact that DiH has a vested interest in Jose financially come into play? JM's financial interst seems less clear, but DiH has admitted to the two of them discussing his percentage of Jose's earnings --specifically when it comes to coaching $$$