But he also teamviewed when they played right?

So if Girah just once gave an advice and they listened to it and didn't just insta quit the game, then they are cheaters too, right?
If not then you are a hypocrite

And if the above is true, we should pursue them with the same scrutiny as you have with Jungleman and all the other cheaters, right?
If not then you are a hypocrite

But ffs! We are saying people didn't get punished and nobody gave a **** then. But now people are. Not fair.

Sorry for the tone. But I can't help but to be annoyed with you after listening to the interview with JM. You use logic such as "If i was staking, then I would check the account 19 times a day..." Well, not everybody has your apparently extremely cynic view of their friends.

Nobody's saying it's 'ok'. What they're saying is that in reality it wouldn't make a difference because if the person playing the account doesn't know who it is then for all intensive purposes the account may as well be jungle's.

It was obviously wrong for jungle to use the account, nobody's saying otherwise. Howerver, asking for $ back because you lost money to an account you didn't know anything about is kinda lol, since if jungle created a new account under his name it would play out the same.

That opinion is less solid now though, since tyler has said he knew halfway through it was Girah or whatever.

Well, Tyler did recently say there was huge misunderstanding, a few posts back. He said what he meant by not knowing who girah was meant that he hadn't been following the Jose/PPP madness, but he googled the name when the match started, found out some info, and decided to play.

But that's an aside. If Tyler just thought the girah account was a random and then didn't practice avoidance when he realized the opponent wasn't a drooler, that DOES weaken his case. BUT, it has no bearing on the severity of what JM did by using such a high profile account.

It's just two separate issues, and I think some posters are not differentiating and causing some confusion. This last part isn't even directed at you, just seemed like a natural segue.

uh yeah this way the cheaters would get screwed. the other way there would be no penalty for cheating, hows that even possible?

are you really even breaking the rules or cheating if theres no penalty (consequences or however you'd like to phrase it)? not possible. would there be a point of the NBA having a free throw line if the ref sees u shooting a free throw from anywhere and you still get a point ? if theres no consequence is it really against the rules to shoot inside the line? basketball and poker are both games with rules. if you keep getting caught for grimming and theres no penalty is it really against the rules (regardless of whats in writing)? if you get caught and receive a penalty, then its a rule

since joses account got DQ'd from bluff challenge for MA'ing, its clearly against the rules and illegal. if it wasnt against the rules (illegal) he wouldve won first prize etc

if the only consequence for MA'ing is to be DQ'd from the bluff challenge then that means if you take away the bluff challenge theres no consequences. this means MA'ing is only against the rules or illegal during the bluff challenge on lock poker. that doesnt make much sense but its possible only because the prize isnt pure cash (afaik)

Meh. "Cheating" is too much of a word here. You seem to think that people MA'ing should give money back. What about PTR users then ? There are many players who wouldn't win at this game at all if it weren't for PTR and similar services, should they give all the money back to the "community" if they are caught ?

Maybe he should be punished for MA, I don't know. It's up to the site to decide if it's against their TOC and what the punishement should be. Maybe they see it as only minor thing, maybe they don't care at all.
Just report it to Merge and be done with it. It's not your right to decide if he should or shouldn't give money back.

I for one don't mind MA at all. I think the rules are ******ed and we can't blame people for doing the only thing which allows them to stay on even terms with the competition (because most high stakes players do that anyway).

noah, please stop saying jungle cheated (im not gonna find everyone else but care what u think hence singling out mentioning u). what he did was slightly scummy, really douchey, and im sure some other adjectives- but its not cheating. he didnt have extra reads on the other guy, and the other guy still had the ability to be a favorite in the match if he was good enough at poker; not like some situation where ur rigging decks or seeing cards or colluding or even multiaccounting v someone u hav tonsa history with (all these would be cheating in descending order of severity). multiacounting v someone u have no history playing with, who u happen to know is slightly slimy (moreso on a site pros account), and super douchey (especially so when the guy has helped u in the past n kept his word to u), but its not cheating. i dont really like jungle btw, he annoys me a lot n gets mad at me a lot- but people are trying to crucify him for something that he deserves some public flaming (a little extra since he lied about it in a spot he shouldve been very forward) and thats about it

saying its up to the site is a bit of a joke, jungle still has more credibility than lock imo. them not catching this chipdump (or covering it up if they did) is really crazy. also lock should obviously be held to a higher standard than jungle (seeing as they hold people's $$).

Stopped reading at this post, sorry if it got answered but I'm on my phone and didn't wanna forget to quote this.

All players on Lock have gray screen name bubbles (where SNs, stack, avatar are all shown). All Lock Pros have red screen name bubbles.

I am not saying catching him as up to them but deciding what punishement should be.
It's their TOC, their site and their rules. Let them decide how severe they think MA is.
Btw, are we even sure they don't allow your buddy to play on your account ? Maybe someone who play there should ask the support ?

Sorry to derail the whole debate about the whole cheating and how much is owed, but I find this rather interesting.

We now have admissions from JM that he played on Girah's account at least twice, once in a PLO session and again aginst Tyler. These admissions only came after it was practically known( PLO session) or Tyler posting on 2+2.

"Do you also admit to stomping "INeverFoldi" and "arnie92662" as well?"

Care to answer that question JM? Or should we wait until the evidence surfaces?

Using someone elses account to play someone who would never play you whilst having prior reads IS CHEATING. No other way to look at it and just because its apparently standard to MA at nosebleeeds doesnt mean its not cheating.

"Cheating refers to the breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating a subjective process. Cheating can refer specifically to marital infidelity. Someone who is known for cheating is referred to as a cheat in British English, and a cheater in American English. "<-- from wiki

If Lock has no credibility then the accusing party should have thought this before depositing money on that site. If I enter some random casino in Vegas and I end up getting cheated there for big $$, its really upto the casino to deal with this matter. If I don't trust the casino, I shouldn't have set my foot there.

I don't disagree that Lock has been nothing but unprofessional, and they should have dealt with all this **** in a more prompt and forthright manner, but it is what it is.

btw to clarify; crucify jungle for trying to cover up girah's scam- or doing anything but completely outing it. Thats fkd up, and scummy imo (all tho lotsa ppl would think and seem to think nothing of it- but thats jus b/c they arent thinking about it right or are morally lacking). however him ma'ing vs someone that had no history; meh w/e.

i dont trust the federal reserve but i use us dollars.

thats only coz your an american citizen and the places where you spend money dont accept any other currency. There are plenty of choices of poker rooms.

I think 2p2 should present lock poker with the findings and lock should be the ones to give punishment?

Durrrr, you are taking this well. I am suprised you arn't even more pissed off considering you where probably going to be a target at some point or an other down the line. Just think if black friday doesnt hit they are coming after you. But I guess even with all that you just call it the way you see it. For that you have to be respected.

Feel obligated to respond since I said that Tyler should take the issue up with Lock. I agree with you that while its douchey and there are some moral issues its not strictly speaking cheating, and that's why I think its a situation between Tyler and the site in question. The "community" can hurt people's reputations if they act unethically but that's about the strongest punishment we have the power to enforce. Beyond that its a site by site basis for what is and isn't against their rules, and what the punishments will be. Personally I think this system is incredibly flawed since the sites by and large have proven themselves incompetent in catching violations, uniformly punishing such violations, and hell sometimes even defining what is and isn't a violation, but its still the only system we have.

Doesn't this blow several people's theory out of the water,

" JM and HB would never be in involed in such a scam like what Jose did for just a small amount of money like 45k. WTF!!! This is chump change to them!!!"

It seems clear that if JM would have negotiated a reasonable settlement with Tyler then this never becomes public. Guess it wasn't worth the " chump change".

Someone else has indicated that this is only if you are also playing on Lock. I'm not saying this is right or wrong since I have no idea/never played there. If someone else could address this that'd be nice.

See it this way- Even if government of the country is corrupt, even if its full of DBags, they are the ones whom we have chosen to decide our future. If they make bad decisions we have cannot do anything but comply, we are stuck with them because its us who chose them in the first place.

I am not arguing with you and I agree that Lock has 0 credibility at this point, but what can we do? The best we can do is to make people aware about their non-competence and their unprofessional behavior.

Some technical details to help appreciate how this story should reflect on lock:

The ability of poker sites to detect chip dumping is overestimated because lot of amateur chipdumpers get caught (and complain here) and because there is no incentive to disclose reality (would reflect badly on poker sites).

Technically it is a pretty complex problem to deal with (automated system can only raise flags on extreme behaviours) and then you have the rely on human judgement and find a balance between false positive and false negative.

Properly executed chip dumping just can't be differencied from normal play.

In the SamChaun chip dump case it is likely that Jungle and girah did not do it too stupidly. If girah is associated with one of the group of scammer targeting poker players then it is very likely that he has advanced knowledge of the subject...

And finally I would guess that chip dumping detection is mostly handled by the network rather than the skin (its how it work for ongame and ipoker)... in which case you would have to question Merge and not Lock.

That makes sense, I don't think I ever saw any different colors for other skin pros, and there would certainly be a ton of them at MSNL I'm sure. I guess it just depends on what skin Tyler played on, I doubt it was Lock though.

Anyone doubt that the true reason that Jungleman was going to live with Jose was so that he would be able to play on Joses account?

This is what needs to happen to anybody caught violating terms of the sites. If a 17 year old hits a progressive jackpot in Vegas for $200,000 he doesn't see a dime, plus the casino keeps whatever wages were spent by the 17 year old, so in essence the casino gets a 100% freeroll on violations they catch. And these same principles need to apply to online poker sites to take the lucrativeness out of cheating and violating MA'ing terms, as well as protecting it's players.

Saying JM cheated based purely on the technicality that he MA'd on girah's acct illegally when he could have MA'd legally is ******ed, esp if both players went into the match fearless. I'm not saying what JM did was right but Noah, ur wayyyyy off base in calling it flat out.cheating and saying he should get 100% of his money back.

What really happened was he was tricked into playing JM in a match he had a legitimate chance to win money in, tho in the long run he would lose $x/hand due to JM being a better player. However on Merge players are allowed more than 1 acct so that issue would always be potentially there no matter what. U can call it douchy, scummy, whatever but don't call it outright cheating. U need to identify and address the varying degrees of being scummy, some are outright cheating and some are just scummy. Just like there are varying degrees of crime so that ppl who commit different, yet similar crimes don't go to jail for the same amount of time because a difference is recognized.