qft

isnt he repping a bluff? is that worth ne thing?

i mean i really do get the hate because op doesnt have a clue, but i dunno how bad it is. obv the intial raise is ******ed, but andrews folding everything but the nuts here and he doesnt have that very much. i know we can all say that since op posted a bluff its an obv call, but this is live too and people do weird stuff esp when theyre scared money and playing super high. if this was posted the other way around, and andrew really did view op the way op thinks, then i think a lot of us would say fold w 87, and i honestly think it would be right. do you know how much someone has to be bluffing this river to call since hes pretty much only doing this for value with the nuts? a lot... and given the villains description theres no way andrew can expect him to be bluffing enough. keep in mind he has to give this guy credit for raising either for value or as a bluff and then insta turning that into a huge bluff as a scared live player. not a lot of shot takers would bluff here >~5%. i kinda like it actually, because even though hes repping nothing it doesnt matter, because a bluff is even more unlikely than the unlikely nuts or second nuts.

I love it. You said that I don't have a clue, yet everything that wrote about my river shove is pretty much exactly what I said my reasoning was.

I'd actuall be more likely to post it. Playing in a bigger game against a superior opponent where I made a big play and got owned...I would want to ask the better players what they thought. I actually kept asking people for thoughts on Andrew's 3bet range and calling range was so that I could see if the play was good. I really haven't received that info from anybody.

fds,

Throughout the thread you have said things along the lines of, 'it's not a matter of how reasonable my hand/line looks but rather how strong Andrew can really be given his line'. Though I agree this plays a major role in decision making it also skews our perception on what his calling range can actually be which is what you are trying to extract from this thread. The reason is because your line is so unreasonable. Do you follow what I mean? It is hard to classify a 'standard' calling range against a very 'nonstandard' line. These are the adjustments that one makes in a game and as such, we the forum not being there, cannot possibly help to create this steadfast range that you yearn for.

Your river play is soley based on thresholds and what Andrews is here. This is just not something we can accurately asses in this spot since neither players line makes much sense (with yours making much less than his). I do know that when players are confused they tend to look people up a bit more but again the monetary threshold you are trying to lean on is ultimately going to be up to you to figure out in this session at this time vs this player in this moment.

I see your point. I just figured that I gave enough background for you guys to put yourself in Andrew's shoes and give me an idea of what you're calling range would be.

I understand that the basic answer with no background is that my line makes no sense and should be looked up light. But I included the background and said in the OP that I thought it was really important for this hand. I was trying to use my image to my advantage, and wanted to know if other people here would significantly adjust their calling range based on that image that i provided. It's not 100 or 200bb. It's a 500bb shove from somebody who hesitated 30 seconds or so to call 250 bb with KK preflop. Absent any physical tells, I think people here could offer what their calling range would be against this person and how likely they'd show up with one of those hands given the strange post postflop action.

I just find it annoying, both in conversation and on this forum, when people dismiss a play with absolutely no analysis (or as little analysis as "you're line makes no sense).

I'm shoving 100K to make about 50K. I think his 30K bet is a bluff a good percetnage of the time. If somehow he has a set or two pair(which i think isn't too likely given his line, but then again nothing is very likely given his line), then I thought that I could fold that out given my image. I also thought that he could fold 78 for the same reason. So I thought his calling range was Q8 or KQ (I did have a Q in my hand). I thought KQ is just so unlikely given the postflop action -- he'd bet the flop or the turn with it almost always. Q8 makes more sense (def could have tried to c/r the flop, but I still think he atleasts bets the turn a lot).

I think the river is more interesting than people are giving it credit for exactly because our lines are so "nonstandard."

someone just sent me this thread to convince me to stay in Vegas and play some 100-200 since apparently the game is running again

Just reading the OP was a pretty convincing argument.

keith smells BS in this thread.

Keith was there for the hand.

smells bs

I don't get it. He was there. So what bs? about what I had?

yeh i didnt need to be such a dick and that was my bad, but i mean the initial river raise is awful.

No worries. I've conceded that the initial raise was pretty bad, but I don't get all the hate about the shove. I mean, not to be results oriented, but it did work. Given my image, I def think he could have valueraised and folded to my shove.

Keith is the dude with the brunette girlfriend poker player yeah?

omg i just posted something really long and thought out... then i clicked post, and i time/logged out and lost it all.

so now i dont care

yea u should shove then come play in my games 100k deep.

your nevrer shoving air here cause you have to much money in front of you and your taking a shot!

also wtf lets play at belagio now you idiots!!!!!!!

good observation. the best part? your first sentence: You're river raise is a bluff, not a value raise.

if he had q9 at all. =]

lol, bro, i'm right behind you. no ****!

did that enough times still. they need to have a feature that actually restores.

im sure this is an oldy, but an article on cardplayer.com was recently posted up that i read and found very interesting. particularly, the river play, needless to say. andrew had good reasoning, but i also felt that some of his reasonings could be interpreted the other way around such as knowing that you may be taking a shot may actually entice some players to spazz more.

anyway, given your analysis, wouldn't it have been better to flat then? regardless of your image, it is sorta crazy to think a shot taker doing this with q9 and somehow i'm not completely convinced, but kudos, you won. can't take that from you.

oh, and here's a link to the article: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...ce-andrew-robl

i thot it made for a good post. surprised that you posted it before me. guess it did make for a good post, haha.

i take it. any amount.

ANY AMOUNT

Any amount?

No.

Call river unless you plan to snapp this raise, because your riverrasie can`t be for for value!