had to rub my eyes today and still cannot believe what i suspect: can you have a different name in the spinwiz list than in pokerstars? i had more than one occasion where i had a few people marked, spinwiz sat me with a sitlister and i couldnt find either name. wtf is the purpose of this?

He probably paused/ended session/closed spinwiz after u sat with him.

Yeah this happens fairly often to me. Could also be more than one Rec clicking register at the same time as SW trys to sit you and him.

i can also not find those guys in the sitlist, isn't every user there? also once i had a person with almost the same screenname but a number being different, that's when it first got my attention.

thx man. I checked their site and they seem to offer it sepperately ("lifetime license"). they dont state the price though. But im trying to get in touch with them.

Trying to find some video packages for spins, what would you guys recommend ?

I recommend u make a comparison betwen how much they cost and what are the alternatives

IMO the best is not buyn packs but being coached by people who crush the games (if u buy any pack see if the guy who made it has good sample at spins and a good chip ev and dont forget all the content there is already known by a decent coach and he can provide u charts etc )

If someone recomends a pack , ask for his results previous and after the pack (same for coaching etc)

GL

Good coaching costs a lot of money. It has its place, but a 5-10 hour pack by a solid coach can't be replaced by an hour or two of coaching, and they generally cost the same.

What coaching can do, for a higher cost (hourly or % of profits), is provide some hands on attention that a pack cannot do. Continual personal coaching from a solid coach can have a huge impact.

The cost can't really be compared to a video pack though.

I have watched a couple of packs, hustla, coffey and they are fine if you are a total beginner in sng's. I found a husng video pack way more useful than any of the spins packs. gl

Its very hard to have a precise calculation about this i can give u 1 example of some1 who bought a video pack for spins (not yours act.) after 1000 games
he is BE chi+ev (i know this doesnt mean anything as there are hundreds of people with diff experiences but im talking about his case)

Then he got coaching , spent the same and now wins consistently 7%ev

Imagine u buy a pack and get 4% roi , but if u bought the coaching u would get 8%

What is more expensive ? Buy a pack play 10k games with 4% and then buy coaching to have 8% or just pay the coaching

Prices for coaching are not always expensive i see people with the same level charging completely different hour rates.


I know im oversimplifying and this can be complex , but i dont feel the best approach is ALWAYS buy a video pack first and i have already experience that shows actually in some cases its the most "expensive" option

As much as I'm pro good coaching and anti almost all video packs your post is the story of one player of one experience level over a very small sample. It shouldn't sway anyone either way because it's almost useless information.

At this point in poker, at least in the case of spins and anything at high stakes people can't charge an amount that people would be willing to pay for actually great information in a video pack. A truly comprehensive video pack on how to crush spins by someone actually crushing 60s-100s spins would be worth 10s of thousands of dollars and almost no-one would pay even 5k.

This

I was clear:

I know im oversimplifying and this can be complex , but i dont feel the best approach is ALWAYS buy a video pack first and i have already experience that shows actually in some cases its the most "expensive" option

+

Theres also a very simple economics rule , things are worth what people are willing to pay , not what u think they will pay

Im a high stakes player and i do a video worth 50 000$ (right) then
someone buys it , uses a phisical cam to record it and sells it for 5 000$
wich is how much people are willing to pay / winning 500 000 $

because im high stakes player i should understand that

This is a totally diferent subject and has nothing to do with my point
about packs i could go on and repeat not all coaches are expensive and
most good coaches give all the knowledge in the packs but also
care for very specific leaks and mindsets of each individual
only this should be enough but i could go on

Either way theres cert. a public for videos and
if people do them with quality im sure they will be usefull for many players.

Video Packs are only good for beginners while coaching is best for Experienced Experts/Veterans at a game.

As a beginner there is no reason to pay someone 100/hr for the same "beginner" information that you would get out of a video pack.

Your example is valid, but there's the converse examples that happen way more often of guys that spend thousands on coaching and don't get better and are out thousands of dollars now, even being coached by great players.

I agree it's not always best, but I think when it's not best to buy a vid pack first (or study with others or join a staking program or study alone with free materials) is usually when you have a lot more income than the average beginner has to spend on getting good. You should also be very motivated and professional about poker playing.

I disagree, I feel that every other game out there has basically proven this point untrue.

In MTTs, Cash, HUSNGs (Think Mersenneary, Croixdawg, etc.) there have been high level guys literally explaining what they do, why, how they study and so on and the material hasn't been worth near 5-50k per person, even if it helped many get better.

And they still felt it was well worth giving away their valuable strategies (they kept crushing, and games got more profitable in the years after they stopped playing poker).

I think it's finally obvious that one person's quality information isn't impacting things to any noticeable level. I think the evidence is in dozens of staking programs and HS players working both in open and closed groups, coaching dozens of hours a week each. Sure things are being impacted by that, but it's taken such a large machine to noticeably impact things... one guy deciding to private coach or do videos or even stake isn't going to matter.

This is generally my experience, particularly given how many players will quit or move on from a game and never advance beyond beginner, and for reasons that have more to do with motivation or personal issues or lack of motivation which most hourly coaches aren't going to have anything to do with improving.

It's not that coaching can't do it, it actually does it better when done well, it's just the risk reward for the higher cost of quality coaching is usually too great for beginners to make it the right play.

One exception I can think of has been Cog over the years. But his 4 hour course for HUSNGs, which was great for beginning players, was more like a live video pack than most people's personal coaching. More tailored to the individual than a vid pack, but mostly the same fundamental winning strategy that helped many newer players for a price they could justify risking to get that content to help them improve.

I guess it depends what you mean by vidpack.

If it's a generic thing- then it won't be worth 5k or w/e to anyone.

But if it contains some very high level content that would only be useful to a few good regs- it could easily be worth that much but only for a select group of regs.

If in 2013 skaiwalkurrr (just to be uncontroversial as idk who is the best reg atm any more) made a pack on how HE plays husngs he wouldn't sell it for under 5k, if not more. But it would only be worth that much for a select group of regs (e.g. those at 500s, and 1ks themselves), and wouldn't be great for most lowerstakes guys.

So in a sense- you will never get the highest quality of strategy in a vidpack since it doesn't work well from a business perspective to do so anyway.

My post was somewhat offhand and I feel like your response deserves a fully focused, well thought out reply. I'll do my best, but no promises.

I'm at the point now where if/when I get coaching, it's not a complete overhaul of my game, but rather an opportunity to shore up a few potential leaky spots. Still, there's soooooo much value in plugging those and improving my EV BB just slightly.

Let's take $100 Spins for example, if via coaching I somehow was able to win only 1 more EV chip per game, that roughly translates into a 0.2% ROI increase. That's 20 cents extra per game, if I played 5,000 games a month it's an extra $1000 in my pocket and $12,000 over the course of a year. So even though I've only improved by the smallest of margins, it's certainly 'worth' paying $5,000 to have done it.

does spinwiz get stuck sometimes ? it had me sitting at 1st for 10-15mins on 2 stakes without regging me.. i paused unpaused it and was still 1st then stopped it and went to back of the line. im running it same time as sharky

Watergun, why would someone price their product based on the value of the top 1% of potential market benefits? If Skai sold for $500, it would help a ton of people and sell like wildfire and rather than 1% getting great value, a much higher % would. Obviously plenty would still buy and not get anything out of it (due to their own work ethic).

I've bought books that helped me >1k directly in my life, at least a few, but they were priced at $25. I'm sure many bought them for $25 and didn't even read them. They shouldn't be priced at 1k bc a small % benefits that much.

Abarone, your theoretical example makes some sense and I agree that players of your level can often benefit largely only from the hidden gem or weak spot being addressed in a vid pack or a solid coach working hands on with you, but it's less volume than a vast majority of spins regs play. Drop it to a more realistic (but still high) 4k games a month, and you're down to $800 a month or $9600 a year.

If you paid $150hr and $5000 to do that, that's over 30 hours of your time spent on top of your money. If you make $100hr in Spins currently (if you're a good $60s reg, that makes sense, and it seems you are), that's an additional $3k in time that you spent (and focused study time and playing time are pretty comparable as far as mental energy required).

So you spent $8k to make $9600. That's a good value if you had a solid coach, but it's not a career altering event. And if you play less than 4k games, it starts to get closer to breakeven and you'd need the coach to improve you even more.

I'm using your 1EV chip as an example, if a coach can improve you more then you start to see some huge gains.

Things aren't linear though, a friend, coach or video pack being taken into account and changing your game can make you worse in some spots too (not always the fault of the friend, coach or vid pack of course) and cause you to lose a lot of money.

Reminds me of the ~$2k "Let there be range" ebook a while ago

Yea, that's probably the most expensive example out there.

Probably equivalent to any HUSNG player, even livb at the time (most popular) selling for $500 or less in our market.

Take a look at Cole's popularity compared to Olivier's, who was by far the most known guy in HUSNGs for years - https://www.google.com/trends/explor...2C%20adonis112

Pretty incredible, I bet that book made hundreds of thousands, maybe even over a million. Also had an internet marketing guy (Tri) behind it, that didn't hurt I'm sure.

coles book, due to it´s pricing was also the most shared/pirated book ever, despite the poker economy was in its golden era.

It was also terribly written

I have the $5000 PLO Book on my flash drive.

roflcopter I just had to wait 14mins in the 100$ que for my games, do most regs just ignore this ridic. que?