I love how people start threads all the time where the title is like "zomg I just disproved this pretty much well known and/or proven theory" but then the OP is just some guy asking a question about it that they just don't understand. Seriously just title the thread "? About nash push/fold charts" and you will get way more legit replies.

I was surprised that after 2 pages that thread wasn't even quoted! READ IT OP

This thread reminds of the first time I went to a casino and, having come up with the idea of martingaling, was like "zomg I am a ****ing genius I will make so much money this way."

General life rule: if you've just gotten into a highly explored area of knowledge, and you think you've just made, after 2 minutes of thinking, what you think is an astounding discovery that will revolutionize the field, then there are 2 possibilities.

1. You are a genius
2. You are a total n00b, and will quickly understand why you're wrong

Occam's razor baby.

.

I wasn't levelling.. why would i quote a guy that i respect's post as a level?
(the dude plays 5k's pretty sure he knows better than you)

oh and your wish was granted mers came in here to clear it up and uh oh, it appears that crimson was right... who would have thought???

I would have been on board with it right away if there was any actual facts, proof or information anywhere that I could find that his idea was indeed correct. Just stating something doesn't make it the truth even if it does come from a highly successful, highly respected reg. I try to think for myself. Often I am wrong

mjw's tone is a little out of line. But I will have makeup sex with him later so **** you, loefflcakes.

Let's say you had two hands 10bb deep: AA and 45o, and the BB always has 88. In shove/fold equilibrium, you'd jam AA 100% of the time, and 45o like 46% of the tine or something like that.

But, if you had two hands 10bb deep, AA and 45s, and the BB still always has 88, you'd jam 100% of the time with anything.

It's both the equity and the fact that you don't get dealt the suited hands as often for why you can add them all to your shoving range.

lol. I hadn't read spamz' post in forever, and forgot that's the example he used.

I think my last post was pretty misleading (aka wrong ) though. When we're talking about 20bb deep, the reason is basically 100% the equity. The combinations just help to explain why all those suited hands can still be in the range. It depends what you're asking. While it's true that you can only shove so much stuff that is behind when called, the only point in choosing those hands is picking the ones with the best equity.

I was attempting to do some math and found that the online Nash chart and the chart in Mathematics of Poker are somehow different. Anyone know why?

My calculations are slightly off because of the chart issues but I clearly see that 3-4% extra EV that K3s has over K3o vs the calling range at 19.9bb is what really matters in the huge discrepancy between the stack size shoving numbers. The main reason is that our opponent is folding so often (because of our protected range shoving all the strong hands as well). Nash has us pushing every single hand that is +EV vs folding. At 19.9bb pushing K3s is +EV and pushing K3o is -EV. I can show the math later if someone flames me.

Differences between MoP/Holdemresources were discussed in this thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36...lidity-785582/

Cliffs: I believe both implementations are correct and the differences are due to the necessary simplification for chart form.

If you want to verify the nash charts, you can simply plug in the stack size in the new calculator & check the EV of hands.

eg:
19.9BB ranges w/ EV per hand

Nobody likes a smartass

I was half expecting another goatse from you given ajloeffl's tone and the inebriation.

Wow, thanks for the link and for the great tool and chart!

Yes, I can be a smartass sometimes but I think it's better than being a flamer like MJW

i wasnt intending to flame and not really what i call flaming.. but my apologies I have my rags at the moment (thank god I thought i was pregnant with mers' baby for a while)...

I was actually just being a smart ass again and trying to make a joke. Don't take any offense. I've learned that dealing with 2p2 I need to have a thick skin and joking around some helps me do that.

You sell burgers for $5. Cost for you is $4.5 (raw meat, gas, salad etc). Profit is 50c. Now if you find cheaper supplier for meat and your cost is only $4 then your profit is $1. Double!

Now back to your example.

When you shove you have x% folding equity which in a long run gives you $5 (just example). When you are called you lose on average $4.9 with K3s and $5.4 with K3o.

You can see the analogy. You lose only slightly more with K3o when called buy your profit changes drastically.

how we read when we have over 20 BB and opponent is <20BB ??

Next time post your question here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...thread-887093/ as you revived v old thread.

If you cover your opponent's stack you read it like you have the same stack as your opponent.