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GTO endgame, theory that won't actually help you win more $, and other Sklansky-esque ramblings GTO endgame, theory that won't actually help you win more $, and other Sklansky-esque ramblings

11-08-2011 , 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyIsNo1
There is still the slight possibility that I have made a critical mistake somewhere that makes the result much more approximate than I'm assuming. Time will tell if this is the case. After SB has minraised, BB may fold, shove or 3-bet to either 5 or 6 BB. The 3-bet may be flat-called or 4-bet shoved (or folded to).
in addition to convergence issues, i'd be nervous also about systematic errors introduced by the way you limit the size of the game tree.

e.g. limiting strategic options postflop could decrease the positional advantage and favor the BB. and any simplifications that, say, reduce the number of cards that can come off on later streets, will make it more valuable to get to postflop with certain hands (and thus play hands preflop relatively loose/passively compared to solutions for the full game), etc.

hard to say. cool stuff though.
GTO endgame, theory that won't actually help you win more $, and other Sklansky-esque ramblings Quote
11-08-2011 , 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaqh
in addition to convergence issues, i'd be nervous also about systematic errors introduced by the way you limit the size of the game tree.

e.g. limiting strategic options postflop could decrease the positional advantage and favor the BB. and any simplifications that, say, reduce the number of cards that can come off on later streets, will make it more valuable to get to postflop with certain hands (and thus play hands preflop relatively loose/passively compared to solutions for the full game), etc.

hard to say. cool stuff though.
There are lots of ways to investigate this that I haven't taken the time to do yet. Memory size limits the number of information sets, but there are lots of different tradeoffs to be made between the number of bet sizes and how aggressively boards and card strength are grouped together. If two very different allocations turn out to produce nearly identical preflop strategies, I think that would be a strong indication that the approximation is good (and vice versa). It is far from trivial how to perform the card grouping/bucketing, for example how much emphasis to put on board texture and how much on hand strength. I think that doing this right within limited resources requires a lot of poker knowledge (as well as programming expertise to minimize memory overhead and make it fast enough). Thanks for your comments!
GTO endgame, theory that won't actually help you win more $, and other Sklansky-esque ramblings Quote
11-08-2011 , 07:02 PM
Just out of interest, have you been able to 'grade' your algorithm by pitching it against its Nemesis, or some approximation thereof?
GTO endgame, theory that won't actually help you win more $, and other Sklansky-esque ramblings Quote
11-08-2011 , 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RigMeARiver
Just out of interest, have you been able to 'grade' your algorithm by pitching it against its Nemesis, or some approximation thereof?
I assume you mean one of the strategies produced by the algorithm? No, not really, because I think this is difficult to do and is not so meaningful when I'm still working on ways to make it better. If you search my old posts in the Poker Theory section you will find a post where I describe that I could beat the 20 BB strategy by 0.010 big blinds per hand with a "purified" version of itself, but that really only proves that the convergence is not complete and says nothing about how much it could be exploited for.
GTO endgame, theory that won't actually help you win more $, and other Sklansky-esque ramblings Quote
11-08-2011 , 08:56 PM
K, yeah I was just wondering if you had some measure of how close you were to 'true GTO'.
GTO endgame, theory that won't actually help you win more $, and other Sklansky-esque ramblings Quote
02-02-2012 , 11:22 AM
bump
GTO endgame, theory that won't actually help you win more $, and other Sklansky-esque ramblings Quote
02-05-2012 , 11:40 PM
I am not sure that a GTO computer actually exists postflop... assuming this you can rank the best options based on 2 criteria:

1. Postflop, being in position is better than out of position.
2. If playing one option is the best, than when you reverse positions you are in the worst position.

Option B is essentially Option A except your OOP postflop. So in order the best options from best to worst are:

1. A) as the small blind.
2. B) as the small blind
3. B) as the big blind
4. A) as the big blind

However, if a game theory optimal computer postflop does actually exist, then it would probably be best to play GTO push fold strategies preflop as you are more likely to make mistakes postflop vs said computer.

As a result, then the best options are:

1. A) as the big blind (where you have a slight edge playing nash)
2. B) as the big blind (where you can force the computer to play push fold)
3. B) as the small blind
4. A) as the small blind

Quote:
Originally Posted by mersenneary
A GTO poker-playing computer walks up to you in a bar and challenges you to HU4ROLLZ. You, slightly drunk and having never seen a GTO poker playing computer before, naturally are very excited, and accept. The computer says you can pick the game between two choices:

A) You're the small blind, 10bb deep, for 1000 hands in a row. You can also take the other side of this game and be the big blind.
B) You're the big blind, 20bb deep, for 1000 hands in a row. The computer will auto-minraise 100% of his holdings from the small blind before the cards are dealt. You can also take the other side of this game and be the small blind.

It's poker, you have all options at your disposal, not just all-in or fold. The computer's equilibrium play extends to postflop, too. In each game, winnings/losses from individual hands are kept track of by a scoreboard, and stack sizes get reset before each new hand.

Which game would you pick? Describe your strategy. Which games do you think are +EV if you play perfectly? If this actually happened, which games do you think you personally would be +EV against the computer in?

Unlike my normal posts I don't have an answer ready to go and I actually want to hear other people's opinions/strategies rather than just remind myself of how smart I am. That's pretty unusual for me so have at it. Obviously the basic question has been bounced around before, not suggesting it's novel.
GTO endgame, theory that won't actually help you win more $, and other Sklansky-esque ramblings Quote

      
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