tyty

its hard for me to extrapolate my mind into hypothetical unreal scenarios with very questionable value on analyzing them at all

thats a 2+2 classic though

i pick up the option B and start 3 betting a lot and flatting and donkbetting a lot

wp, thats my line too when stuff is over my head. GTO poker playing computers never even talk to strangers in bars, this thread must be another mers level

loled. trying to confuse the computer, interesting

actually solved for the ranges and evs using my own software, but im pretty sure its right.

"Which game would you pick? Describe your strategy. Which games do you think are +EV if you play perfectly? If this actually happened, which games do you think you personally would be +EV against the computer in?"

B
neither
neither

reasoning;
minraising 100% vs me at 20bbs wont be optimal but computer is forced to mr 100% because of the rules of the game and thereby does not play optimal, and i think this is the only edge we can attain given that he plays GTO.

its assuming he has a perfect calling range vs you (as in, equilibrium), but thats really such a ******ed assumption, dont think that'd ever be possible with whatever superPC

So if you decide your best option will be a push/fold game,both options are basically the same.
Got to think more about it,but leaning towards option A since you are in position.

the sb being forced by the rules to minraise every button in the modified game is no more a disadvantage than the BB being forced by the rules to post the BB in the original game.

i.e., it is a disadvantage, but that doesnt necessarily mean you have an edge.

and, conceptually, its probably best to think of it as the bot is still playing gto given the rules of the game which happen to be different

I think it's game A

min raising the button 100% 20bb deep isn't that far from GTO and I don't believe you could overcome the positional disadvantage of giving up the button 100%. Remember, the bot plays GTO postflop as well so you shouldn't technically be able to outplay him the majority times even if his hand range is slightly weaker then a solid range.

It seems much better to have the button 100% even if you are only 10bb deep.

ah i misworded, i didnt mean to say we gain edge, i just think it is easier for us to breakeven , and thus let the HU4ROLLZ be a gamble over 1000 hands :P

Hence i said neither games are +EV for us, and i dont think im +EV in either.

Guys, mers gave away the answer in this thread;


make sure GTO endgame computers roll is bigger then yours! and then your +EV in both games!

You answered this when asked isnt unexploitable the best we can do.

I wonder, isnt breakeven the best we can do?

no if breaking even happens to be the best we can do in either game a or game b it would be a complete coincidence and is so unlikely that you can assume it's not

Can someone give an example of GTO type post flop hands?

I think I'm not grasping it properly

the way I see it, its like whatever we do, villain will play perfect against us, hence I can't see how position or amount of BBs would matter...

I assume that in B you also have to be opening 100% when you choose the sb.

And are we even sure a GTO bot exists in hypers, and why?

Skai you've confused me a fair bit,
Earlier when someone asked what GTO is exactly you said;

but now when i say isn't BE the best we can do, you say;




you can't pick, in B you are the bb, in A you are the SB.

the playing fields in these games are not equal

no, we won't be playing the sb in game B the question is imply who has the edge in a 20bb game where sb is forced to minraise, sb or bb

Okay so here's the breakdown as I see it,

Question 1: Who has the advantage in each game?
Game 1 - Small Blind. Anywhere from 0bb to 8bb the shove/fold GTO equilibrium favors SB, and intuitively it seems like the SB should have a small advantage at 9-10bb as well when limp/minr/etc options are added. even if that is not true, it's fairly unlikely that the BB's advantage at 9-10bb outweighs SB's advantage at other stacksizes.

Game 2 - Small Blind. Because position is a huge edge empirically, and minr 100% can't be that wrong.

Question 2: Which game would you play?
Assuming we got question 1 at least half right, there's no point in playing game 1 cause you could just play BB in game 2 and have more options.

Question 3: I wouldn't be +EV in any of the games. Since (almost) everyone makes mistakes at an appreciable rate, I'm guessing the set of players who would have an edge is probably limited to the top 5-10 hu cap players playing their A game in g2, sb (unlikely, since they're drunk at a bar). More likely an edge exists if said players have a chance to study what GTO play actually looks like first.

Can someone show me a calc/link w/e how much -ev we are using nash at 10bb from sb?

not relevant to the topic, but i don't think so. if levels were on a per hand basis instead of time then my guess would be yes.

I'm not sure of this but i think time intervals are able to become infinitely small, so deciding at which point exactly to put in your action when levels go up on a time basis there would not be a finite amount of possibilities so nash' proof doesn't hold anymore

then it seems to me the sole thing we need to figure out to know if we want to play game a or b is;

Does the positive effect of being the button at 10bbs outweigh the negative effect of not being the button while facing a 100% minraise at 20bbs.

if yes, then we chose game A, if no we chose game B

(is this correct?)

Im starting to think game A now

mainly because in post flop GTO situations villain will have to bet certain amounts that he won't be able to because of lack of bbs.

if we nash 0-10bbs, probably 0EV
If we just look at playing nash at 10bbs -0.05EV
(deducted from graph above in thread lol)