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07-02-2011 , 05:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by furkae
Perhaps I couldn't express myself well which led to some misunderstandings. My first and most important goal is to have a better WR.
Read a few pages of your challenge. I wasn't impressed.

- You are a proven winner at 10NL. Your huge bankroll and you need to grow a pair and move up.
- Having a better red line is utterly worthless. There are players (ie Cardrunners instructors) with a negative red line that can crush small stakes. As Youfaiil said, focus on your decisions and let your red line move as it wishes.
- Improving your win rate at 10NL won't make you a much better player. You just learn how to exploit your usual opponents better. Your focus on learning is too high. Players improve naturally as they move up. Improving from -1bb/100 to 6bb/100 at a higher stake is a lot more rewarding that improving from 6bb/100 to 10bb/100.

Whether you are weak tight or not, I don't know, but you definitely seem very timid to me.
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07-02-2011 , 06:21 AM
+1 to the above, plus i can't believe you folded in the KQs hand :/ turn is always a call, i don't think there's ever a reason to fold.
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07-02-2011 , 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baohoa
KQs hand. both flatting or squeezing are good imo. depends on your postflop play here. KQs works really well mw even oop, i lean more towards flatting. you keep their range wider and don't bloat the pot oop with a hand that works well with higher SPR. i would prefer to squeeze with hands like A9o here.
if HU you could 3bet or value sometimes.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baohoa
otf i would x/raise, you're doing really well vs. anything that is not a set, do really well even vs. the nfd or tptk. your hand is a monster hand here. btn would probably raise a set. plus there's dead money in the pot. and you're oop which make it more difficult to draw and get paid.
as played flatting turn looks ok
Dunno. I was going to x/r but the call by the BTN and the presence of the BB made me think calling is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey111
Read a few pages of your challenge. I wasn't impressed.

- You are a proven winner at 10NL. Your huge bankroll and you need to grow a pair and move up.
- Having a better red line is utterly worthless. There are players (ie Cardrunners instructors) with a negative red line that can crush small stakes. As Youfaiil said, focus on your decisions and let your red line move as it wishes.
This is the difference: I'm not crushing and my NSD WR is way too low (currently -12 bb/100).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey111
- Improving your win rate at 10NL won't make you a much better player. You just learn how to exploit your usual opponents better. Your focus on learning is too high. Players improve naturally as they move up. Improving from -1bb/100 to 6bb/100 at a higher stake is a lot more rewarding that improving from 6bb/100 to 10bb/100.

Whether you are weak tight or not, I don't know, but you definitely seem very timid to me.
This is very interesting! I'm not sure I agree with you but you def. may be right! I have cashed out most of my BR (I only have 40BI now) so I don't want to move up right now but I will seriously consider it if I have 30BI for NL25. Thx for your comments, really appreciate them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by YouFaiil
+1 to the above, plus i can't believe you folded in the KQs hand :/ turn is always a call, i don't think there's ever a reason to fold.
I know, I know This hand proves how important it is posting them: I thought I might have made a mistake OTF but actually I made a bigger one OTT.

Thx all of you!
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07-02-2011 , 07:57 AM
BB has to play straightforwardly there. BTN would probably raise a set on a two tone board. anyway should look at his whole range (contains more Kx and draws than sets, especially as played). if we flat and a spade hits ott it's really hard to extract value. you need to play your strong draws (draws containing a pair or having some backdoor-gutshot equity - don't overvalue naked draws especially with undercards to the board) aggressively. you get tons of outright folds, or peels + fold on later street (=redline) and more value for the times you hit. don't be afraid of losing to sets sometimes.
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07-02-2011 , 08:49 AM
That's true, thx.

What about the next hand? Villain was a passive nit. River seems to be straightforward but I'm still asking: what to do there?

    Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    UTG: $2.13 (21.3 bb)
    MP: $9.07 (90.7 bb)
    CO: $10.27 (102.7 bb)
    BTN: $3.80 (38 bb)
    Hero (SB): $10 (100 bb)
    BB: $5.95 (59.5 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with A 7
    4 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BB calls $0.20

    Flop: ($0.60) 5 A 9 (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.34, BB calls $0.34

    Turn: ($1.28) 7 (2 players)
    Hero bets $1.09, BB calls $1.09

    River: ($3.46) T (2 players)
    Hero ???
    Quote
    07-02-2011 , 09:41 AM
    I like your attitude OP. I wish you success.
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    07-02-2011 , 10:06 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by furkae
    That's true, thx.

    What about the next hand? Villain was a passive nit. River seems to be straightforward but I'm still asking: what to do there?

      Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      UTG: $2.13 (21.3 bb)
      MP: $9.07 (90.7 bb)
      CO: $10.27 (102.7 bb)
      BTN: $3.80 (38 bb)
      Hero (SB): $10 (100 bb)
      BB: $5.95 (59.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with A 7
      4 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BB calls $0.20

      Flop: ($0.60) 5 A 9 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.34, BB calls $0.34

      Turn: ($1.28) 7 (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.09, BB calls $1.09

      River: ($3.46) T (2 players)
      Hero ???
      bet big ($3.1) because he never folds a good ace here.
      Quote
      07-02-2011 , 10:40 AM
      why bet 3.1 when villain has 4.2 left, just shove the river unless you really think he's not stacking off with any big Ace here, then i would just b/c something like 2.4/2.5
      Quote
      07-02-2011 , 10:48 AM
      what kind of passive nit? would he 3bet a big ace pre in blind war? would he raise a set ott? does he fold a lot to cbets otf and ott?

      either b/f an amount that allows you to fold in case he shoves, assuming he's passive. 1/3 to 1/2 psb looks good here.

      OR check and revaluate. remember we're not afraid of being bluffed.

      it depends on how you think he'd play with AJ+ pre, and sets ott.if he'd bet pre with AQ+, TT+ lets say, we're basically valubetting only vs. one hand.

      if he's passive pre, then the range we're targetting is wider and i'd feel safer in vbetting.
      Quote
      07-02-2011 , 12:45 PM
      shove river, if you bet and he shoves, i would cry. b/f is ok i guess, but i still like shoving here...
      Quote
      07-02-2011 , 01:01 PM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Donkey111
      I like your attitude OP. I wish you success.
      Thx! July has started better (than June) I hope I'll find my A-game again.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by huckleo
      bet big ($3.1) because he never folds a good ace here.
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by YouFaiil
      why bet 3.1 when villain has 4.2 left, just shove the river unless you really think he's not stacking off with any big Ace here, then i would just b/c something like 2.4/2.5
      I actually did the latter (b/c 2/3 pot).

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by baohoa
      what kind of passive nit? would he 3bet a big ace pre in blind war? would he raise a set ott? does he fold a lot to cbets otf and ott?
      I don't know as I have only 40ish hands on him and he hardly played a hand postflop.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by baohoa
      either b/f an amount that allows you to fold in case he shoves, assuming he's passive. 1/3 to 1/2 psb looks good here.
      Can I really b/f given he had a PSB left?

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by baohoa
      OR check and revaluate. remember we're not afraid of being bluffed.

      it depends on how you think he'd play with AJ+ pre, and sets ott.if he'd bet pre with AQ+, TT+ lets say, we're basically valubetting only vs. one hand.

      if he's passive pre, then the range we're targetting is wider and i'd feel safer in vbetting.
      I don't think he 3bets w/ AQ or TT but I don't really know it for sure either. I think betting OTR is really thin but there are some hands (AJ/AQ) he can call with.

      If I check can I x/c? He won't bet w/ hands I beat (too often) and he won't bluff either.
      Quote
      07-02-2011 , 01:02 PM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by YouFaiil
      shove river, if you bet and he shoves, i would cry. b/f is ok i guess, but i still like shoving here...
      Again, can we b/f as he has a PSB left?

      He had 55 (obviously).
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      07-02-2011 , 02:03 PM
      this is why i said shove, because he has a psb left, if he has more then i still cant see b/f, although a c/c line i do prefer, i'm not sure how bad c/c that river is vs this villain.

      I think because they are a passive nit, you could even check this river, if you think he 3bets big Ax hands pre, i cant see him flatting weaker Ax's pre and then calling 2 streets, PP's are definitely in his flatting range pre but idk how bad it is to narrow villains range to nearly just sets.

      After some thought i actually really like b/f like 1/3 of the pot. He's never bluffing, his range for flatting pre and calling 3 streets is super strong but you can still get worse hands to call by betting smaller.

      It's thin or maybe i'm just wrong lol. I put it down to not playing for a month .

      glgl furkae!
      Quote
      07-02-2011 , 02:25 PM
      the thing is that this guy is never bluffing so we can bf easily, forget the odds, and our hand is not so strong given that there few Ax hand he doesn't 3bet that we beat. 40 hands is a tiny sample size though, i thought we had more reads. i still hate the big bet though.
      Quote
      07-02-2011 , 04:32 PM
      Betting 1/3 pot for value is something new for me but I think this is a very good example when I should have considered it. And given he (practically) never bluffs in this spot I could have folded to the raise.

      Thx guys, I can't say often enough how thankful I am for your comments!

      As for today: I run several times into my opponents' top range and lost a 60:40 against a huge fish but still finished in the green.

      Quote
      07-03-2011 , 09:09 AM
      What do you think of the following hand? I normally bet/bet/bet but villain was a bit passive regular (20/15, 50% (3/6) fold to 3bet, 1/2 F2CB in 3bet pot) and I thought I wouldn't get three streets of value from worse.

        Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
        Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

        BB: $9 (90 bb)
        UTG: $10.05 (100.5 bb)
        MP: $10 (100 bb)
        Hero (CO): $10 (100 bb)
        BTN: $5.13 (51.3 bb)
        SB: $7.90 (79 bb)

        Preflop: Hero is CO with K A
        UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $1, 3 folds, MP calls $0.70

        Flop: ($2.15) A 8 7 (2 players)
        MP checks, Hero bets $1.23, MP calls $1.23

        Turn: ($4.61) 6 (2 players)
        MP checks, Hero checks

        River: ($4.61) 4 (2 players)
        MP bets $7.77 and is all-in, Hero ???
        Quote
        07-03-2011 , 11:19 AM
        With a 50% fold to cbet I can definitely see him flatting PP's to set mine, Ax hands too.

        What were his fold to 3bet/4bet stats?

        I would b/f something like 2.5 OTT, if he raises, he's never bluffing and you avoid having to make a call on the river.

        When he shoves the river, he can see your hand as being weak because you 3bet, bet 1/2 pot OTF and then the checked back the turn.

        I like b/f the turn, i don't think he's shoving anything worse over a bet and with 50% fold to 3bet, he can be set mining.
        Quote
        07-03-2011 , 12:58 PM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by YouFaiil
        With a 50% fold to cbet I can definitely see him flatting PP's to set mine, Ax hands too.
        ??? Do you mean 50% fold to 3bet, don't you? I agree w/ you on this but the sample size is still too small to be sure and I don't have an appropriate read on him.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by YouFaiil
        What were his fold to 3bet/4bet stats?
        3/6, s. also my original post.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by YouFaiil
        I would b/f something like 2.5 OTT, if he raises, he's never bluffing and you avoid having to make a call on the river.
        I have TPTK in a 3bet pot. Even if he's somehow passive I would hate b/f'ing OTT.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by YouFaiil
        When he shoves the river, he can see your hand as being weak because you 3bet, bet 1/2 pot OTF and then the checked back the turn.

        I like b/f the turn, i don't think he's shoving anything worse over a bet and with 50% fold to 3bet, he can be set mining.
        The only hand I beat but may get 3 streets of value is AQ. JJ/TT would fold OTR even if he calls OTT. On the other hand these hands may call (or even bet) OTR more often than OTT. I would have snap called a normal sized bet OTR. Do you still think betting OTT is better than my line?

        EDIT: As played the river is an easy fold, isn't it?!?

        Last edited by furkae; 07-03-2011 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Easy fold OTR
        Quote
        07-03-2011 , 01:05 PM
        river looks like a fold. i think i'd bet turn tough, for value vs. Ax and to collect dead money vs. 99_KK. i know what you mean by prolly not getting 3 streets of value, but there are enough good reasons to bet. fold if raised, he's beating AK in that case.
        Quote
        07-03-2011 , 01:23 PM
        Well, thx both of you. I'm really confused now having read your answers...
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        07-03-2011 , 03:02 PM
        general reasoning for betting:

        -for value: villain calls with enough worse hands to make a profit
        -as a bluff: we can make villain fold a better hand
        -to collect dead money (which often comes with one of the two reasons above): we bet to scoop up the pot and make villain fold his pot equity.


        in that hand, ott we can get value from Ax hands, though it's not a huge part of villain's range. AND we can collect dead money (most of the times we bet and villain folds): villain gives up his equity (outs for sets/gutshots/sd/kicker pairing...), at the same time we don't have benefits by giving him a free card as he's probably not paying us unimproved.
        Quote
        07-03-2011 , 04:02 PM
        I think it was a WA/WB situation and I wasn't afraid of giving a free card.

        I have posted this hand in the 6max forum and all the answers said I should have bet/bet/shoved. I think I have to accept this .

        As of the graph from today. It looks awful but I've got coolered (a nit hit his set in a T-high 3bet pot) again and couldn't win a big pot at all.



        One hand to discuss. Villain was a huge fish (50/10 over 162 hands) but I had a lot of trouble w/ him as he donk bet 67% (esp. on low flops) and he was quite aggro OTT too. Fold to raise OTF: 5/8. How do you play this hand?

          Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
          Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

          UTG: $1.34 (13.4 bb)
          MP: $10.32 (103.2 bb)
          CO: $11.76 (117.6 bb)
          Hero (BTN): $13.26 (132.6 bb)
          SB: $10.86 (108.6 bb)
          BB: $10.16 (101.6 bb)

          Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q A
          2 folds, CO calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, CO calls $0.30

          Flop: ($0.95) 5 J 9 (2 players)
          CO bets $0.50, Hero ???
          Quote
          07-03-2011 , 05:18 PM
          on this particular board i guess he must have picked up something: at least a pair, pair + draw or a combo of these. i don't see raising as an option. this board smashes his range rather than yours, and you would make him fold only the few bluffs he can have here. it's more likely a fold to me (a Q is not that great card on this board , any diamond either so we're relying on 2 outs if villain has only one pair, and the times we are ahead he has good equity).
          flatting IP is not criminal, but if villain is likely to dub the turn as well you're going to burn money most of the times.
          vs. donk bets on drawy boards like these i tend to let it go if i don't have much equity.
          also this donkbet is not so weak in terms of size. did he always donk half pot when he folded?
          Quote
          07-03-2011 , 05:32 PM
          raise him on dry boards, but be patient and wait for one, dont spew and raise him on a wet board like the one in your example.
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          07-03-2011 , 11:30 PM
          thats a terrible time to value bet 1/3 pot. Youre ahead like 90% and unless your expecting him to call you w/ 78 or some such trash, hes gonna call the same amount for 3/4 as he will for 1/3
          Quote

                
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