You're right about the draws.

But we don't get light calls by [1p, pp] type hands with a pot sized bet in a 3b pot.

So long as we bet at least 1/2 pot and get a call, we'll have no trouble getting stacks in OTT.

A 1/2 PSB of $70 leaves us with $425 left in a $275 pot, so a bit of an overshove for the turn, plus giving fairly decent 3:1 odds to a flush draw (which ain't great if we're feeling committed, which we should be imo).

Gjustsayin'G

Oops, yes, I had the stacks remaining $100 less.

Agreed, 1/2 pot makes it a tough shove OTT.

$400 into $300 with draws still calling isn't unreasonable though.

Putting in 200bb with TPGK after V opened 8x over a couple limps seems like a good way to burn money unless V is a massive fish that will pay off with worse.

I mostly agree except draws. Read in op is that 8x sizing may be consistent with a very wide late position open. If that's the case v is only likely felting with 2p+ and strong draws.

He should have a bunch of bluff catchy stuff that wants to peel and some spazz able stuff.

Which is why you fold pre. I get it.

Well, I think it's kinda in tune with what WJ said too. I mean, it seems like a large part of the reason we 3bet preflop was for value, and now we've hit TP, and now all of a sudden we're worried it's not for value? We can't have it both ways, imo. If we raised preflop in large part for value, time to go to value town ASAP on pretty much the best flop we can get; otherwise (and I'm in this boat), we shoulda just folded to begin with.

GimoG

grunch:
3! to $75 pre lead flop for $110. it's a flop you should be cbetting a lot so make it look like you want fold equity imo.

Hero's range looks like AK/KK+ betting this flop and bombing brick turns. If V gets it in for 200bb, we probably aren't going to win too often unless, as said, V is a massive fish.

No more than this, and closer to half pot is prob an ideal sizing with your whole range. KQo would be bet-f in straightforward 1-3 game with a few player dependent exceptions.

Not sure you realize, but hand v range, AQss>>>KQo on this flop in both equity and playability.

Of course I know that. It's why I stated my thoughts on how elastic he might be and that it should influence our sizing decision (not just one combo) but his entire range. But you clipped that out of your quote.

... I meant OP, sorry ��

pre is whatever
135 on the flop

Gotcha. No worries.

should we have any made hands in our flop check range?

I get lollive and all that, but KQo is somewhere near the bottom of a defending range, which, along with it's blockers, makes it sexy as a 3bet. Something like 3!=call=fold seems closer to me. Without a plan, I'd probably go fold>3!>call.

What is our goal with iso this guy? Nothing in the read suggests he's lolbad. Are we expecting to make a near immediate profit due to a large pre r/f range? Anyway, my point is I'd like to know how I'm planning to exploit villain if I'm gonna iso him. If the info is in the op and I missed it, apologies.

We can bet big on the flop if he's mostly gonna x/jam his draws here. Again, from OP, I don't know what we're expecting, what range Villain is putting us on, etc.

KK?

Villain has a lot of draw combos here. idk

KX with a spade would definitely be better candidates than KQ no spade, assuming we don't want to just bluffcatch all KQ.

Do you even regwar bruh?

regwar strat on this flop has gotta be a merged stack off over 2 streets right?

Well...

Super reg fish mayhaps.

Otherwise bet frop X turn call river if he bets and bet like a missed draw if he checks and get bluff caught 92.3% of the time if he didn't back into a ******ed 2p on the free river card obv.


cAfpsAm

I don't know nor did I read anything after this point

This is kinda why I little girly like lean towards a fold. This spot is so hairy it's prehistoric. Flop: You've put yourself in a position where no matter how you slice it's gonna be marginal and big ol ? You may lose your stack with real dilemna to AK, KK, AA, unless we remove AA KK bc of what you said about him 4! On top of it, yes you have to hope he doesn't already have you beat/crushed, and you're still looking at a dangerously wet board where you have to make decisions for your stack (200+BB) and hope your a slight-ok favorite.
All I can say is thank god you have position, or there's no way you make it out alive long-term.

The fact that most of us are in agreement that the spot PF was Fold, 3!, or call acceptable says to me it's not really that EV+ any of the ways. So, since I like easy decisions cause that is top dog EV+ I think I would have just folded.

It's tough though, it's so tough, I am in pain as to what I should be doing as a winning poker player. (what a winning poker player should do at 1/3)

I hate calling though PF, seems like a decently thinking Villian, which seems he is? ---- Calling, our hand is face up, TT or less, Broadways and JT. and you're odd 98s.


Fold > 3! > Call Idk, I have to think about it; as to what is best.



Follow UP: You're never getting money in and you're a big favorite unless he has KJ or KT or K9s. Not after you 3! That's a bad spot.

I don't understand this?


Why are you willing to put and call-back money into the pot with a worse hand?

You b/c with QK?

You x/c with AK?


Why?

It's like... we're never laying down this hand on flop ever, we 3!ed, we flopped top pair, we can't bail cause we're scared of AK, so we're hoping he calls us with KJ or KT, but is he really stacking off with KJ or KT after we've 3!ed? And is he really going to go stack off with us without a decent draw when we have last aggression, so he's not gonna donk, he's gonna wait for us to bet. And if he has a decent draw, at least 35% equity, that is our summit. Our absolute best-case scenario is 64% equity, seems nauseating to me.

It just seems like in this spot 200BB+ deep, he's never gonna be putting substantial money into pot post-flop unless we're hung or at best slightly favored. EV+ is EV+. But I hate competing for spots that are so thin in the first place. Maybe I'm wrong though, idk. It just seems the way this hand/spots are one finds himself in a spot where you're gonna be really uncertain no matter what.


This is a really really really thought-provoking hand.



My gut has me saying the right move by a competent poker player is 3! and re-evaluating post-flop, but my gut's really nauseous trying to play it.




Follow Up: The majority of the time were taking down this pot is when he folds the flop cause we just folded out worse.