@ Lapi

1) I would guess I limp/reraise my big hands more than I open them (especially in EP, not as much in MP+ although this particular spot here I probably would alternate between this and a $35 open). The exceptions are when the table is shorter, tighter and more ABC, which this one isn't.

2) Hard to tell how often others limp/reraise, but it certainly isn't uncommon.

3) Really depends how loose the table is facing a big limp reraise. I often only limp/reraise big hands because I (surprisingly) can get action, sometimes even in lol multiple spots.

Gcluelesslimp/reraisingnoobG

I think anything less than a flat after the button 3x raise is just short of FPS. It's not like an UTG l/rr, but the HJ is going to get looked up a lot more and we have a button MAWG who likes to gamble and spew. Do you think he's folding to $85?

We would have to jam here for a good change of taking it down, but we would be laying 345 to win 80. Not bad, backdoor equity, and variance.

I perhaps didn't think as much about limp/squeezing as I should have, but I decide to just call and see a flop. Thoughts on preflop still welcome.


Preflop (10 players): Hero is LJ with K J

UTG+1 limps, MP1 limps, Hero overlimps, HJ folds, CO folds, Button raises to $15, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls

Flop (5 players, $75): J 9 8

BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero...


In multiway big pots, this isn't much of a check-to-the-raiser type of table (partly why I think initiative in these spots is overrated). Often big hands will simply bet out here looking to protect their pot. This flop is a little different in that real monsters (such as big flushes) might just slowplay, while other strong hands (straights, sets and two pairs) might not exactly be thrilled enough with their hand on this board to lead out.

Button is unlikely to cbet complete air into the world even if it is checked to him.

At least 3 of my opponents (possibly all 4 of them) would probably call a bet with just Tx (no spade draw), let alone a lone spade draw (especially with a pair). TP+ ain't folding, at least on the flop. A pair less than TP with no draw (a somewhat unlikely hand on this board) will be reluctant to call a bet.

Interestingly enough, we're in the exact same spot we would have been in had we opened to a "reasonable" amount ourselves, and in fact might be in even a slightly better spot since our range is perhaps a little wider / disguised. But I'm still not in love with the result and would much rather be in a limped pot, but it looks like that is just me.

So, now what?

GcluelessNLnoobG

I would bet $50. There are obviously a ton of draws that you can get value from. With top pair good kicker, you have the best hand a lot of the time, and it's certainly not the kind of board where you want to give a free card.

If raised, I think you can happily fold, since the villains as described are unlikely to semi-bluff into four people here.

checks, you're flipping with pair/draw, even bare 7+, could be crushed already, if you get raised you have to fold.

Take a turn.

lol at wanting to bet this flop 5-ways

try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible

Aren't I ok with betting and going to the turn versus a hand I'm flipping with, especially if I bet relatively small?

And since I don't really have any outs to a good hand, I'm pretty cool with folding to a raise now (i.e. it's not like betting perhaps blows me off a hand I'd really like to see a turn with).

GcluelessflopnoobG

$20 pre jfc

Should I be concerned about giving a free card 5way when I could have the best hand in a big pot?

Not sure if I'm looking at this correctly, but in small pots (say if this pot was limped) I think I'd be more apt to lean towards checking, since the mistake of allowing a worse hand to draw out on me and win a small pot is fairly insignificant. Whereas letting a worse hand draw out on me in a big pot is a big mistake.

ETA: Course, shoveling in big money when I could easily be behind ain't exactly an insignificant mistake.

GcluelessflopnoobG

The issue is all the times you get raised.

If everyone just calls worse and only raises made hands then sure, but there are so many possible combo draws that could jam and force us to fold and then we've lost our equity plus a bet.

So it doesn't make sense when there's no upside to betting to begin with.

/ flop

as played i would backraise $125 -> shove any flop

Preventing free cards to four opponents in a big pot, who *if* all behind (admittedly, I'm not sure how often this is the case) likely have a significant number of combined outs against me (but perhaps not an individual number of outs for any of them to warrant a call), isn't an upside?

GcluelessflopnoobG

I agree backraising KJs here would be FPS, but at the same time I don't mind taking it to the felt for 100 BB's vs. described villain on the BTN.

The reason I like $125 pre -> jam flop rather than just shipping pre is we can extract the additional $110 from BTN and have him fold flops without realizing his showdown equity

Favorable outcomes:
- Villain calls to set mine and folds to our flop shove unimproved
- Villain calls with AK/AQ/AJ and folds unimproved
- Villain calls with worse drawing hands, flops a draw and bricks out
- Villain calls with worse Kx/Jx, we both flop top pair and GII

Doesn't matter if you fold out 22 when Q🍞 is still calling.

I raise pre but AP this flop is disgusting. I check and get ready to fold if more than one person shows an interest in the pot.

Limp reraise is awful. We would never limp behind with a big hand in this spot so we are really capped and just kind of button clicking hoping nobody notices we never have the goods.

Pre flop is really close to me, normally I'd raise since we'd want to define ranges a little more and knock out other players + buy position but it sounds like that isn't going to happen in this game, so I'm cool with the over-limp.

Once we get this flop with this many players, definitely checking and evaluating from there...

There are zero good turn cards for you GG. x/c or x/f.

And lulz... you don't "disguise" a weak hand. Its called bluffing.

Yup... villains always say, "you go nothing... you'd never play a strong hand like this"...

...as they fold.

This /\

You describe players behind you as 50's, loose and full of gambool. This makes your position extra awkward because the pfr will prob c-bet this 100%....and 9 10 from the 50 year old loose guy in ep is just waiting to check raise.

It appears that you pulled out your dabber and chose to play bingo with some of the 50 year olds this hand.

I'd backraise pre. KJs crushes a wide btn opening range and a bunch of early position l/c. Bet/fold about $100 pre. Shove all flops if called.

100% check the flop. Hope button checks and a blank hits the turn. See everyone act again before putting another cent in the pot.

If you are considering folding at that point you should never have been in the hand to begin with. The question is calling or raising. I prefer a call. Squeezing isn't terrible but it going to look very much like a squeeze. You will have to judge yourself if you have enough FE to make it work.

The button description here also changes things preflop. With a villain who will just randomly inflate the pot then raise/fold is better preflop. Either take the lead yourself or get out of the way. Still need the rare limp with this sort of hand but it's the diversification play now. Mostly so villain's can't just put you on pairs when you limp/call. How often you still limp depends on how often button raises, what his sizing is and average stacks.

If your other villains have any sense this makes limp/raise a complex metagame itself. With this guy behind you and not particularly deep some limp/raising is in order. I would wait to back raise with a hand like this until I have established a very tight image and show some limp/raises with AA/KK. Once that image is set then slip some raises with AK and weaker hands in.

You don't have a spade and you have a lot of opponents. If you are not already beat somebody probably has a good draw against you. Check and see what develops.

This sort of flop is one of the advantages of limping in when you can. You can just give up on the flop without leaking money/equity. Now your going to be risking a lot of money in a low SPR situation with little idea where you stand.

For those of you advocating giving up on this flop, what's the weakest hand that you would continue with? AJ? TJ? Two pair? Are you never continuing here without a redraw?

I might call depending on who bets and our relative position to them, I'd just never bet out here.

Lol raised kjs in a verrrry similar spot today and got my $25 called 7 times for a family pot haha.